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 Post subject: Steroids
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 4:23 pm 
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Location: The Empire State
Anyone else get the feeling that the jig is up concerning steroids in baseball, and the sooner the players who were on them admit it, the better for their reputations and the game's reputation? Gene Orza's and Don Fehr's Steriods? What steroids? We don't see no stinkin' steroids! stance notwithstanding?<p>Today's stories about Bonds having received steroids, combined with the explosion in his offensive statistics since 2001 and his physique over that time, sure seem to be pointing in the direction of Bonds' being a steroid user. Maybe he thinks he can beat this rap just the way he can beat a Pedro Martinez fastball or an Andy Pettitte curve.<p>But I think he underestimates how serious the charges are and what kind of damage could be done to his reputation and his stats. <p>What if Bonds is found to have used steroids in 2001? Does the single-season home-run record then revert to McGwire, who hit 70 while using a steroid precursor in 1998? Or does it go back to Roger Maris, who didn't use anything more powerful than Camels and Bud to fortify his biceps?<p>I also wonder if Mr. Giambi and Mr. Sheffield might end up missing big chunks of the season if they are called to testify further in the Balco matter--or if they are indicted themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Steroids
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:08 pm 
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Location: Baltimore
it's going to get ugly. hideous.<p>Bonds' records will be tainted no matter the legal outcome of all this. Hell, all of baseball will be tainted.<p>Where McGuire will fit in will be interesting to those who still care about records. I used to care about records, but baseball has changed so drastically over the years (night games; shifting strike zones; change in stadium dimensions; rules against messing up the ball; divisional play; changes in turf, gloves, ball and bats; and many more) that comparisons of Bonds to Maris, let alone Ruth or Home Run Baker, rely on sentimentality, not logic.<p>Anyone who's been around steroid users has been able to see players on TV and box scores and say, "He's on them." <p>This could be a setback comparable to the cocaine scandals of the 1970s -- or far worse.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
Anyone else get the feeling that the jig is up concerning steroids in baseball, and the sooner the players who were on them admit it, the better for their reputations and the game's reputation? Gene Orza's and Don Fehr's Steriods? What steroids? We don't see no stinkin' steroids! stance notwithstanding?<p>Today's stories about Bonds having received steroids, combined with the explosion in his offensive statistics since 2001 and his physique over that time, sure seem to be pointing in the direction of Bonds' being a steroid user. Maybe he thinks he can beat this rap just the way he can beat a Pedro Martinez fastball or an Andy Pettitte curve.<p>But I think he underestimates how serious the charges are and what kind of damage could be done to his reputation and his stats. <p>What if Bonds is found to have used steroids in 2001? Does the single-season home-run record then revert to McGwire, who hit 70 while using a steroid precursor in 1998? Or does it go back to Roger Maris, who didn't use anything more powerful than Camels and Bud to fortify his biceps?<p>I also wonder if Mr. Giambi and Mr. Sheffield might end up missing big chunks of the season if they are called to testify further in the Balco matter--or if they are indicted themselves.<hr></blockquote>


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 Post subject: Re: Steroids
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:30 pm 
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Location: New Jersey
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wayne Countryman:

This could be a setback comparable to the cocaine scandals of the 1970s -- or far worse.<p>
<hr></blockquote><p>
On the other hand, if Selig rules this issue with an iron fist (which seems admittedly unlikely), it could be good for the game.<p>In the next round of collective bargaining, the owners should demand an out-and-out ban with IOC-style testing, and let the players strike if they don't like it. It's not time to mess around anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Steroids
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:40 pm 
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Yeah, Matthew, if Selig had any guts, he would hire Dick Pound of the World Anti-Doping Agency to create, implement and monitor a drug-testing program for baseball and tell Orza and Fehr to strike if they didn't like it. They might, too, but I get the feeling there are enough players who want testing and punishment to split the union and force it to accept those measures.<p>But Selig is gutless and wouldn't do anything of the sort.<p>There was a piece by Murray Chass in the *Times* a couple of weeks ago in which he argued that if baseball and the players' association are unable to quash the grand jury subpoenas for the names of the players who tested positive last year, the players' association is going to hold out for no testing or punishment at all in the next collective bargaining agreement.<p>My response to Chass' column is, Are you kidding? Do you really think that if steroid users on the order of Bonds or Giambi or Sheffield are exposed, the public relations nightmare that will ensue will permit the players' association even to think about proposing such a preposterous notion as elminating testing and punishment? That's incredulous. The players' association will try to position itself as arguing in favor of players' privacy rights by wanting to do away with testing and punishment, but what it will really be arguing in favor of is its members' ability to cheat while possibly destroying their bodies.<p>This issue is not going away, as Wayne indicated, and I agree with him that it is going to get really ugly.<p>[ March 02, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Steroids
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:39 am 
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Location: Saranac Lake, N.Y.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
What if Bonds is found to have used steroids in 2001? Does the single-season home-run record then revert to McGwire, who hit 70 while using a steroid precursor in 1998? Or does it go back to Roger Maris, who didn't use anything more powerful than Camels and Bud to fortify his biceps? <hr></blockquote><p>I suppose we can haul out the asterisks again. What about Sosa? Was he on steroids when he broke the 60 mark? Has anyone seen a satisfactory explanation of the explosion in home runs in the past decade?


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 Post subject: Re: Steroids
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 12:43 pm 
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Location: Cusp of retirement, grave or both
**George Herman (Babe) Ruth, 60, 1927; record in dispute due to heavy use of fried chicken and prostitutes during the regular season.


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