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 Post subject: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:57 pm 
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Wade Boggs? I guess he has to go in because of his batting titles and because he racked up 3,010 hits and a .328 average. And his lifetime numbers were very similar to Rod Carew's--3,053 hits with the same .328 average, though Carew also had an MVP, whereas Boggs didn't.<p>It's just that Boggs always struck me as such a one-dimensional singles hitter, whereas I think of Carew as having been much more versatile at the plate. Yet Boggs hit 578 doubles to Carew's 445, and Boggs hit 118 homers to Carew's 92. (Boggs played in 2,439 games; Carew, 2,469.)<p>Anyone else feel slightly uneasy about Boggs? I do admit that the numbers support him, and that's what matters in the end.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:07 pm 
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I had this conversation with a friend about a week ago. We agreed Boggs is a foregone conclusion on the first ballot. But we don't get to vote, so...<p>My friend lives near San Diego, so I'm thinking: Tony Gwynn -- another foregone conclusion?


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:00 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
I had this conversation with a friend about a week ago. We agreed Boggs is a foregone conclusion on the first ballot. But we don't get to vote, so...<p>My friend lives near San Diego, so I'm thinking: Tony Gwynn -- another foregone conclusion?<hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, Gwynn was Boggs' equal in the National League. Gwynn will be a first-balloter too. It's almost too bad for symmetry's sake that they can't be inducted together, given that they will both probably go in on the first ballot. Boggs retired after the '99 season, but Gwynn hung on till '01.<p>During Gwynn's last season, I remember seeing footage of him as a young player while watching some kind of tribute to him. You would almost think Willie McGee had impersonated Gwynn in that film--that's how whippet-thin and lean Gwynn was when he came up. Boy, did he take a liking to his groceries.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:34 pm 
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My above-mentioned friend told me that watching Gwynn run in his later, less-lean years was a painful thing indeed.<p>What's always impressed me much more than his numbers is that Gwynn was loyal to one club throughout his career, and a small-market club at that. And when he hung 'em up, he didn't go the broadcast route (good thing; he has a voice rather like Jackie Robinson's) or on some other ego-ticket ride. He accepted the head coaching position at SDSU, where he'd volunteered the previous season as assistant coach. The guy's got class.<p>[ January 17, 2004: Message edited by: Oeditpus Rex ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:43 pm 
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Yep, he is classy.<p>Funny you mention his voice, though. You're right, it does have a hilarious tone--as if he has inhaled helium--but his manner is very congenial and down-to-earth. He's not phonily self-deprecating , as many celebrities can be (hellooooo, Gary Carter!). And the few times I've caught parts of ESPN game broadcasts with him in the booth, I've been impressed by his ability to provide color analysis without intruding on the play-by-play or calling undue attention to himself.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:18 am 
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One advantage Boggs has over Gwynn is that he drew twice as many walks in the same number of seasons. I think Boggs's greatest at-bat came in the World Series against Atlanta. As I recall, the Braves won the first two games and had taken a big lead in the third. The Yankees then staged a rally. Boggs came to bat with the bases loaded and the tying or go-ahead run on third. He worked the pitcher to a full count. The duel seemed to take an eternity. Then he held off swinging at a close pitch and drew a walk. Talk about grace under pressure. The Yankees went on to win the game and the series.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:56 pm 
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Yes, ADK, that was a pivotal point in that game. (The Leyritz three-run jack off Wohlers being the other.) And how ironic that a hitter like Boggs is best known for an at bat in which he walked.<p>[ January 19, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:54 pm 
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On Gwynn: I saw him play once, in Chicago. He had five hits, all singles I believe.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:01 pm 
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Please forgive me, blanp, i can resist no longer.<p>Joe Torre:
As a player: batting title (.363); MVP; Gold Glove.
.297 career batting avg.; 100 RBIs five times<p>As a manager: won 4 World Series, 6 league champions, conference championships in both leagues.
Twice manager of the year; 1,680 wins (200 more than Earl Weaver; 400 more than Billy Martin)


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:04 pm 
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Andre Dawson:
438 HRs; 1,591 RBIs (more than Mickey Mantle); 1,373 runs; 8-time all-star; MVP; rookie of year; 8 Gold Gloves; 314 stolen bases (twice as many as Mickey Mantle); led league in hits, total bases, HRs, RBIs for seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:10 pm 
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IFFY:
Dwight Evans:
1,470 runs; 1,384 RBIs; 385 HRs; 8-time Gold Glove; led league in runs, home runs, total bases, extra-base hits.
good all-around team player; fantastic fielder.<p>(XXXX XXXXXXX)
MVP; 6-time all-star; rookie of the year; led league in RBIs and HRs; teams won two world series.
200 steals. Better human being than Ty Cobb.<p>that would be:
Jose Canseco


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2004 9:45 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wayne Countryman:
Andre Dawson:
438 HRs; 1,591 RBIs (more than Mickey Mantle); 1,373 runs; 8-time all-star; MVP; rookie of year; 8 Gold Gloves; 314 stolen bases (twice as many as Mickey Mantle); led league in hits, total bases, HRs, RBIs for seasons.
<hr></blockquote><p>I didn't watch him play much either on TV or in person (his prime occurred while I was a teen), but my impression is that he was a great player--but not great enough to be enshrined. Obviously you're comparing apples and oranges when comparing Dawson with Mantle, who was a legend because of his on-field feats, the team he played for and the position he played on it. It's impossible to compare players of different eras anyway. Mantle was facing seven other teams in his league, whereas Dawson was facing, what, 13? That made for a lot of second-line pitchers for Dawson to have feasted on for all those years. Ballpark dimensions were different between the eras as well. <p>Evans, too, was great, and I watched him pretty extensively. You're right--runners didn't take the extra base on him, and he was a dangerous hitter. I still remember him whacking the first pitch of the 1986 season off Jack Morris at Tiger Stadium for a home run, a portent of things to come for those Red Sox. But Evans wasn't good enough to be considered a Hall of Famer.<p>With Canseco, of course, you are joking. Canseco is the modern era's Dave Kingman, though admittedly Canseco probably had (and squandered) more talent than Kingman did. I will be shocked, shocked, if Canseco gets enough votes to remain on the ballot after his first year of eligibility.<p>Now Jack Morris presents a solid case for enshrinement. He was undoubtedly the dominant American League pitcher of his era and always the ace on whatever staff he pitched on. His 10-inning shutout in the '91 Series represents one of the greatest Series games ever played and one of the greatest pitching performances of all time. The fact that he won "only" 254 games, in the era of the five-man rotation and on some bad Tigers teams, should not be held against him. Though he never won the Cy Young, he did finish in the Top 10 seven times, led his league in wins twice and was a five-time All-Star.<p>[ January 19, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 12:56 am 
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I thought you baseball fans would appreciate this incoherent letter to the Salt Lake Tribune from Alan Navex of West Valley City, Utah:<p>
Last time I heard, sports gambling was not a crime. Neither is lying about it.
Lawrence Taylor is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, even though he consumed illegal drugs, and he also admitted to sending prostitutes to other teams' rooms the night before they would face him in games. President Clinton lied, President Bush lied about weapons of mass destruction and sent hundreds of innocent soldiers and citizens to their deaths, but they kept their jobs.
The integrity of baseball doesn't seem to be affected by the fact that they allow George Steinbrenner to buy players for himself and the city of New York for ungodly amounts of money for the sake of a championship.
If some people want to ban Pete Rose from baseball for life, that's fine with me. If they want to create a Hall Of Shame and make him the first inductee, that's fine, too. But there are candidates who deserve it more. For his feats on the field, Pete Rose belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Period.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:48 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wayne Countryman:
Better human being than Ty Cobb.<hr></blockquote>So was Jeffrey Dahmer, but he couldn't hit the curve ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:44 am 
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For what it's worth, and I've been a Red Sox fan since I was 10 and Tony Conigliaro was a rookie, I wouldn't put Dwight Evans in the Hall. Certainly not Jose Canseco and possibly not Jack Morris.<p>Joe Torre, yes, but only by combining his managing and his playing.<p>Andre Dawson, borderline: Like Mantle, he came to the majors with bum legs from playing football. His legs suffered from playing on bad turf in the cold in Montreal for many years. Excellent outfielder. He was no Mantle, but he was better than perhaps a quarter of the players in the Hall -- not that that means he should get in. He was better than his longtime teammate, Gary Carter, who's in. Too bad Dawson was so quiet and willing to play hurt in bad situations. Was MVP playing for last-place team.<p>Canseco and Dave Kingman had little in common. Kingman couldn't hit for average, couldn't run, was a terrible fielder and was a fungus in the clubhouse. Canseco had great speed (40 steals and 40 HRs in one season, before that became common). When young he covered ground and had a great arm. When his head was on straight, he could hit for average as well as distance. Of course, we know (as if there ever was doubt) that he was pumped up on steroids that led to his body coming apart and contributed to stupid behavior on and off the field.<p>Canseco was a terrible waste of talent. Keep him out. He should spend the rest of his life at autograph fairs with Darryl Strawberry.<p>Evans was a good all-around player, but not great. <p>Morris was one of the better American League pitchers of his time, but not many had good, long careers then. He had several excellent seasons and pitched one of the greatest postseason games. Considering what gets players voted in to the Hall these days, he belongs, but i think too many players are getting in.<p>I stopped caring about Pete Rose before he stopped playing. If it shuts him up, vote him in, but ban him from every ballpark. <p>I grew up near Cooperstown and visited the Hall as a child and as an adult. Am glad that Negro League players and even announcers are recognized there. Gary Carter-types have been getting voted in for decades, and I'm tired of trying to take it seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:34 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:

With Canseco, of course, you are joking. Canseco is the modern era's Dave Kingman...
<hr></blockquote><p>You obviously never saw Kingman play.<p>[ January 20, 2004: Message edited by: Tim Hathcock ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:20 am 
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Around the horn:<p>Dwight Evans: Loved him, but no.<p>Jose Canseco: No. Too much of a freak and a waste of talent.<p>Dave Kingman: Fun to watch, but no. (I worked with the sportswriter whom Kingman dumped the bucket of water on, and let's just say Kong probably had a good reason.)<p>Andre Dawson: A good case could be made. He's better in just about every aspect of the game than Winfield, and as pointed out, better than many in the Hall. But do we compound the mistake of the Gary Carter voters? Extra points for being a decent man.<p>Tony Conigliaro and Ron Santo: Tony would give his right eye, and Santo would give his left foot to be in the Hall, but they just don't cut it. Santo sealed his fate with his behavior in '69. And he's damaged his cause with his performance in the radio booth. Brutal.<p>Wade Boggs: Yes. He was a uniquely skilled player with 3,000 hits (and, as ADK's numbers remind us, a great walker). He and Tony Gwynn join the same wing as George Brett.<p>Jack Morris: His post-season exploits rank him ahead of the Kaat and Bunning crowd. But does his regular-season career put him over the top? What's his career record against Winfield?<p>Joe Torre: A fixture of the game and an easy selection.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 7:37 pm 
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Bert Blyleven?


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 3:23 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
Bert Blyleven?<hr></blockquote><p>Bert Be-Home-By-leven? I'm only 37, but I've never seen a better curveball (including that of Barry Zito) than the one Bert used to uncork. Yellow hammer of God, indeed. <p>He was on some really bad teams but won 287 games (25th on the all-time list, according to baseball-reference.com) and punched out 3,701 batters, which ranks fifth on the all-time list.<p>One possible negative would be that he lost almost as many as he won (250, for a .534 winning percentage), which is the argument that many people used to discredit Nolan Ryan's (324-292, .526) and Don Sutton's (324-256, .559) Hall worthiness. But are a pitcher's losses attributable more to the teams he played on or to the pitcher's ability (or inability)?<p>I also can't say I honestly remember Blyleven being a dominant pitcher in his league for a sustained period, which is another supposed criterion for Hall induction. He was consistently very good for most of his career, but I don't know if he was dominant the way Ryan could be (seven no-hitters and 5,714 strikeouts). Interestingly, neither Blyleven nor Ryan nor Sutton ever won a Cy Young award.<p>I guess if you're going to induct someone on the basis of a long, productive career, Blyleven (and Jim Kaat for that matter) deserves to be in. But if you're going to induct someone on the basis of being a dominant player at his position for a sustained period, then Blyleven and Kaat (283-237, .544, 2,461 K's) probably don't deserve to be in.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 4:06 pm 
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He had an ERA of 3.31 over 22 years. That strikes me as pretty good. I'd like to know how that compares with pitchers in the Hall and with his contemporaries. ERA is the best measure of a pitcher's effectiveness.


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 Post subject: Re: Other Hall-worthy players
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 4:13 pm 
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To satisfy mine and others' curiosity, here are the ERAs from some of his contemporaries:<p>Nolan Ryan: 3.19
Don Sutton: 3.26
Catfish Hunter: 3.26
Phil Niekro: 3.35
Jim Kaat: 3.45


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