The Pope ...?

kvetchingeditor · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:01 am

So here I am in the newsroom with a designer, outputter, news editor and a random guy as we wait to see if the Pope will die. The nice thing about my paper is that our deadline is 3 a.m., which is beyond the deadline of other newspapers in this great area. Hah. So basically we're hoping to pull the story before others.

In the past 15 minutes things have gone from ... "very serious" to "very grave" to ... who knows.

This, folks, is why I love what we do. That last minute, down to the wire, 'let's wait for it' kind of thing. I'm silly and lame. But yes.

In other news, what's up with everyone dying? Mitch Hedberg, Schiavo, Johnny Cochran -- and the Pope, Prince Rainier, Jerry Falwell, Deep Throat ... they're all about ready to pass too. Crazy.

JulieS · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:31 am

I'm right there with you. It's 1:30 a.m. Alaska time and I have another 15 minutes to change the front page and still get the news in the street edition.

Aren't all the deaths a sign of impending Armageddon, or depending on your political slant, a sign that all is right with the world?

Docsdoctor · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:30 am

Aside from there being no political slant that I can detect to the recent group of deaths, it just says that a lot of famous people are sick or old, or both. That some of them were famous because they were sick is something else.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:05 am

JulieS wrote:

Aren't all the deaths a sign of impending Armageddon, or depending on your political slant, a sign that all is right with the world?

And then there are those to whom "sign of impending Armageddon" and "all is right with the world" go hand in hand.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:33 pm

He's dead.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:41 pm

jjmoney62 wrote:

He's dead.

Reportedly, but be careful, PMs!

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:03 pm

We now return you to episode two of "The Death of Mary, Queen of Scots,"
specially adapted for radio by Gracie Fields and Joe Frazier.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:04 pm

Now, reportedly not. PMs may have to go with "Pope Dead for All Practical Purposes"

Someone jumped the gun:

kvetchingeditor · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:16 pm

Has anyone been watching CNN over the past few days? It's incredibly amusing how his condition has changed ....

"very serious" (late last night)
"very grave" (very late last night)
"clinging to life" (around 11:30 today)
"deteriorating" (about 12:45 today)

Think they'll run out of ways to say he's "not doing so well" before he actually passes?

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:18 pm

The Italian news agency ADNKronos, without citing sources, reported that a brain monitor hooked to the pope had gone flat. But a senior Vatican official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press that the pope was still alive and that there was no such monitoring device in his apartment. (AP)

How about waiting till the Vatican says he's dead?

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:41 pm

We're holding off on our GOD DEFEATS JOHN PAUL headline.

Don't want to see a smiling pope holding that one up tomorrow.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:27 pm

Time to hit the button.

We're going with POPE ON THE ROPES

kvetchingeditor · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:34 pm

jjmoney62 wrote:

We're holding off on our GOD DEFEATS JOHN PAUL headline.

Don't want to see a smiling pope holding that one up tomorrow.

*COUGH* .... don't forget that "II" at the end of John Paul. I'm pretty sure he already defeated the other John Paul : D

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:58 pm

Phillip Blanchard wrote:

*** Does that say "KAROL WOJTYLE"? I think it is "KAROL WOJTYLA," not sure though. But that is a perfect hed. ***

aparker54 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:59 pm

I do hope that Frank Perdue isn't forgotten in all of the excitement.

Oeditpus Rex · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:12 pm

copyeditorDN wrote:

This, folks, is why I love what we do. That last minute, down to the wire, 'let's wait for it' kind of thing. I'm silly and lame. But yes.

I'm three days short of 49 and I feel the same way. I'd still rather be in a newsroom when The Big Story is breaking than anyplace else.

Hang onto that, DN. It'll sustain you when you're old and burned out.

ram280 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:05 pm

aparker54 wrote:

I do hope that Frank Perdue isn't forgotten in all of the excitement.

The pontiff of poultry passes ...

newsdesigner · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:43 pm

Phillip Blanchard wrote:

Someone jumped the gun:

That was a goof, apparently. Somebody punched the wrong button last night and it got sent out to the Newseum (and the Courant's own site). It's got dummy text and looks like it might be a potential special section front.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:45 pm

Cool album cover, nonetheless.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:57 pm

I suppose we shouldn't make fun of a simple mistake.

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:13 pm

They took it down. Anyone still have a saved PDF? I would find much joy in someone else's goof-ups.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:07 am

Isn't the Pope's original Polish name misspelled in the picture above?

Abe · **Joined:** Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:40 pm **Posts:** 154

Matthew Grieco wrote:

Isn't the Pope's original Polish name misspelled in the picture above?

Yes, it's misspelled.

EMorse · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:17 am

This came to me in slot tonight:

Quote:

By Jodi Wilgoren
NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE
From St. Peterâ€™s Square in Rome to the churches that remained open into the night in Warsaw to the pews of Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago, millions of Roman Catholics interrupted their day Friday to stand vigil and offer prayers for Pope John Paul II.

No false prophets here; just false ranges.

Later, in the same story:

Quote:

Leaders and lay people teetered on the brink of mourning, recalling the popeâ€™s global accomplishments

It's a good thing they didn't tip over, because then mourning would have broken.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:30 am

All right, all right.

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:14 am

Yes. It's spelled Karol Wojtyla (not Wojtyle).

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:16 pm

Bill Walsh reminds us that everyone isn't anything:

I'm sorry to be so crass, but there is a lesson to be learned here about inclusiveness. Not everyone is a Catholic. Not everyone is a Christian. Not everyone believes in God. Not everyone thinks religion is a force for good. A large majority of the world's people, I'm sure, are sorry to see an old man dying, but a great many don't think kneeling and whispering will make things better.

SuchASlot · **Joined:** Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:01 am **Posts:** 1189

Right on, Bill.

DominEditrix · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:18 pm

And now we'll get "World Mourns".

A religious question: If Catholics believe the Pope has gone to heaven, why do they mourn?

D.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:20 pm

DominEditrix wrote:

And now we'll get "World Mourns".

A religious question: If Catholics believe the Pope has gone to heaven, why do they mourn?

Get graphics to work on that!

sphinx2000 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:49 pm

DominEditrix wrote:

And now we'll get "World Mourns".

A religious question: If Catholics believe the Pope has gone to heaven, why do they mourn?

There are many Catholics who are not mourning, and I don't think it's right to make that generalization, especially when it's based on a hypothetical "World Mourns" headline.

See the link to Bill's Web site above to learn about inclusiveness.

mtarnowski · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:49 pm

Quote:

I'm sorry to be so crass, but there is a lesson to be learned here about inclusiveness. Not everyone is a Catholic. Not everyone is a Christian. Not everyone believes in God. Not everyone thinks religion is a force for good. A large majority of the world's people, I'm sure, are sorry to see an old man dying, but a great many don't think kneeling and whispering will make things better.

And those endless CNN shots of people in St. Peter's Square, with their heads upturned to the windows of the papal apartments, appear to me almost ghoulish. What can they expect to see?

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:57 pm

I have no doubt that being in St. Peter's Square when the pope dies is a meaningful and emotional experience for many Catholics.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:09 pm

Election of the new pope is the prerogative of the College of Cardinals, who meet within 15 to 20 days in the Sistine Chapel to choose his successor from among their number by secret ballot. (Washingtonpost.com)

***Careful. There's nothing that says the pope must be a cardinal. He doesn't even have to be a priest. (This has been a popular plot over the years in such novels as "Hadrian the Seventh" by Frederick Rolfe and "The Vicar of Christ" by Walter F. Murphy.) I suppose he doesn't even have to be Catholic, but that would be a stretch even for a novelist.***

DominEditrix · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:18 pm

sphinx2000 wrote:

There are many Catholics who are not mourning, and I don't think it's right to make that generalization, especially when it's based on a hypothetical "World Mourns" headline.

See the link to Bill's Web site above to learn about inclusiveness.

[url=http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12740852%255E601,00.html]No longer

[/url]hypothetical

What part of the sarcasm did you miss?

D.

sphinx2000 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:12 pm

DominEditrix wrote:

[url=http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,12740852%255E601,00.html]No longer

[/url]hypothetical

What part of the sarcasm did you miss?

D.

So, you were being sarcastic when you asked, "If Catholics believe the Pope has gone to heaven, why do they mourn?" Yeah, right. I don't believe you for a second on that one.

You can cite all the erroneous headlines you want, not every Catholic out there is in mourning, and, obviously, not everyone in the world is mourning.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:39 pm

All right, all right.

Wabberjocky · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:56 pm

A look, via newseum.org, at papers that choked under last night's pressure:

â€” "Pope teeters near death," Anchorage Daily News (Why THAT verb? Ugh)

â€” "'No hope' for John Paul," Santa Barbara News-Press (Why be so negative?)

â€” "Waiting and weeping," Rocky Mountain News (Does this really best tell the story?)

â€” "Frail pope near death," South Florida Sun-Sentinel (Redundant for all practical purposes)

â€” "Pope likely facing final struggle," Savannah (Ga.) Morning News (Why is it a struggle? who says?)

â€” "Catholics keep vigil for dying pope" The (Baltimore) Sun (Is it really just Catholics?)

â€” "Stay with us, people cry," The (Minneapolis) Star Tribune (I don't think most people weren't accepting the inevitablityy of his death; my impression from all the stories I've read is that most hoped for a peaceful passing.)

â€” "'This day just felt like a final moment,'" The State, Columbia S.C. (Um ... what?)

â€” "'There is no more hope,'" Knoxville (Tn.) News-Sentinel (Speak for yourselves.)

â€” "John Paul II 'on verge of death,'" The Seattle Times (If you're going to go to the trouble of borrowing from a quote, use the quote accurately â€” it's "on THE verge of death.)

â€” "Heaven's calling," The (Tacoma) News Tribune (What's Sunday's headline? "Heaven called"?)

â€” "Next pope will be anybody's guess" Stevens Point (Wis.) Journal (Let's concentrate on the current one, huh?)

â€” "Pope nears death; Heart, kidneys failing" Rockford (Ill.) Register Star (at least they didn't refer, as TV news did last night, to his "bodily functions" being "notably compromised.)

oldmanandcow · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:31 pm

Couple of disagreements:

â€” "'No hope' for John Paul," Santa Barbara News-Press (Why be so negative?)

Was there reason to be positive about is condition?

â€” "Frail pope near death," South Florida Sun-Sentinel (Redundant for all practical purposes)

Perhaps, but he's been referred to as "frail" for the last three years, and he hasn't been at death's door during that entire time.

â€” "Catholics keep vigil for dying pope" The (Baltimore) Sun (Is it really just Catholics?)

Well, it doesn't say everyone else isn't. Just that Catholics are.

â€” "'There is no more hope,'" Knoxville (Tn.) News-Sentinel (Speak for yourselves.)

In context, this quote tells the whole story. The cardinal speaking wasn't referring to hope in general; just hope for his recovery.

Wabberjocky · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:35 pm

Points taken, but are those really the best few words they could have chosen to express themselves? To me, they jumped out as inferior ... or overreaching.

oldmanandcow · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:42 pm

Agreed on most points. This is one story that everyone should have been prepared for, but it hasn't brought out the best in print.

TheWalrus · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:34 pm

My Catholic high school teachers won't be happy if they read this one.

Is a pope elected or appointed? From what I know about the conclave, it seems that either word is appropriate.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:55 pm

TheWalrus wrote:

Is a pope elected or appointed? From what I know about the conclave, it seems that either word is appropriate.

Elected.

TheWalrus · **Posted:** Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:36 pm

Thanks.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:57 am

Phillip Blanchard wrote:

Election of the new pope is the prerogative of the College of Cardinals, who meet within 15 to 20 days in the Sistine Chapel to choose his successor from among their number by secret ballot. (Washingtonpost.com)

***Careful. There's nothing that says the pope must be a cardinal. He doesn't even have to be a priest. (This has been a popular plot over the years in such novels as "Hadrian the Seventh" by Frederick Rolfe and "The Vicar of Christ" by Walter F. Murphy.) I suppose he doesn't even have to be Catholic, but that would be a stretch even for a novelist.***

A story I read in the Guardian earlier today said that the pope can be any baptized male Roman Catholic, but that the last time a non-cardinal was chosen was in the 14th century.

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:33 am

A couple of things I noted: Hartford Courant didnâ€™t use â€œREQUEM.â€ They changed the spelling of the Popeâ€™s name, and South Florida Sun-Sentinel stole their idea. Miami Herald, Orange County Register and St. Petersburg Times handled it well. And the Washington Times, like always, blew it.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:42 am

Now this is a headline (courtesy of the NY Times):

Pope Succumbs to Illness Suffered at Length and in Public

Nessie3 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:02 am

Papal Chase
Will the next pope be black, Hispanic, American, a Jew?
By Steven Waldman
Posted Wednesday, Oct. 15, 2003, at 8:13 AM PT

Editor's note: This article originally ran in 2003, when Pope John Paul II was experiencing a serious enough illness to make people begin to speculate about who might be his successor. This article has been slightly modified and updated.

Slightly modified, but not updated for tastefulness.

Also from Slate:

Knockin' on Heaven's Door

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:22 am

Who was frail?

He was the most athletic pope of all time, according to ESPN. So much so that they assembled an interactive of his sportsmanship.

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:41 am

jjmoney62 wrote:

Pope Succumbs to Illness Suffered at Length and in Public

Ahh, The Times. Sometimes they try too hard to keep their "professional" image.

aparker54 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:53 pm

Votes for best headline? Good headlines?

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:33 pm

aparker54 wrote:

Votes for best headline? Good headlines?

That does it.

Don't need his age or title in the big headline.

Uh, wrong.

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:50 pm

*** That doesn't even say anything about the Pope dying. ***

*** Once again, no. ***

*** Hmm ... ***

kvetchingeditor · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:30 pm

The pope gets the rail. Very nice!!

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:49 pm

I was born near Dothan. There are zero Catholics within hundreds of miles, or close to zero Catholics. Not to be crass, as Bill says, but the story has less impact there than it has elsewhere.

Let me quote Bill Walsh, even if it is out of context:
Sorry to be so crass, but there is a lesson to be learned here about inclusiveness. Not everyone is a Catholic. Not everyone is a Christian. Not everyone believes in God. Not everyone thinks religion is a force for good. A large majority of the world's people, I'm sure, are sorry to see an old man dying, but a great many don't think kneeling and whispering will make things better.

I work in a heavily Catholic area, and appreciate the fact that this story has great import to much of our readership. Still, it has been a little difficult keeping some rim editors' feelings in check.

[

moab · **Joined:** Sat Mar 22, 2003 1:01 am **Posts:** 190

I'm always amazed that so many papers (including mine) struggle so hard to come up with the all-encompassing 2-3 words about how "we" feel instead of using a straightforward hed. (full disclosure: I'm not Catholic, so I'm not among the world's weeping, though of course I'm sorry to hear of his death)

People buy the big-event papers because they want tangible proof of a historic event: something to clip out and paste in a scrapbook, save for their grandchildren, sell on Ebay. These are the times when people who never read news on paper throw down their 50 cents for that record of history. The "Pope dies" headline is a big part of why they do, in my opinion.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:35 pm

I'm about as non-religious -- anti-religious,even -- as one gets, but I'm the first to admit that I find the papacy fascinating. I'm not in grief over the death of a man who lived a very long and full life, but I'm as curious as any Catholic about the process surrounding the succession and who the successor will be.

I am also genuinely fascinated by the photos I see showing Catholics weeping over the pope's death. I wonder how representative they are.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:37 pm

They are not representative of 99.999999 percent of the population in the environs of Dothan, Ala., Matt. I can guarantee you that.

jmcg · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:17 pm

Blame the designers, and the obsession with TV etc., for the 2 or 3 word heds that have to stray from thne news itself.

jmcg · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:25 pm

I wouldn't have gone with the Palm Beach hed. But doesn't putting his date of birth and date of death in the overline make it clear enough that he's dead?

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:32 pm

jmcg wrote:

I wouldn't have gone with the Palm Beach hed. But doesn't his date of birth and date of death in the overline made it clear enough that he's dead?

Yes.

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 8:49 pm

kvetchingeditor · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:10 pm

pragmaticedit wrote:

Hrm. It seems so playful.

I'm not quite sure how we're playing up the pope's death. But it's a huge second day wire story. (Since we don't print on weekends)

SMilner · **Posted:** Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:13 pm

(Full disclosure: Protestant)

Even if there are few Catholics to be found in an area, this story is worth more than the rail. The pope had a more than a religious influence, although that alone can be a major impact; it's his political influence that affected many non-Catholics in the world. World leaders have not always listened to the pope, but the papacy has strong allegiances and enemies, so the pope's death and the choice of his successor are going to have some major political effects. I've never been to Dothan and of course have no idea if they'll see any of these effects directly, but this goes beyond religious affiliation.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:59 am

The life of a remarkable man told in a remarkable new way

To capture more of the life and legacy of Pope John Paul II, the Chicago Tribune will provide a multimedia CD-ROM titled "Be not afraid: The epic papacy of John Paul II."

***"Remarkable new way."***

ishmael · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:34 am

Quote:

To capture more of the life and legacy of Pope John Paul II, the Chicago Tribune will provide a multimedia CD-ROM titled "Be not afraid: The epic papacy of John Paul II."

I'm very afraid, instructions notwithstanding.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:30 am

This thread, laden with attachments, has become technically unwieldy.

adering · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:54 am

So what's the worst headline so far?

Anything like:

Pope Gone Paul II

or

11,991 rotten.com Dead Pool Players Score

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:07 am

Worst yet was on sidebar regarding John Paul II being the most-traveled pope ever:

"Il Papa" was a rolling stone

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:51 pm

Source, Bumf?

pragmaticedit · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:12 pm

Bumfketeer wrote:

Worst yet was on sidebar regarding John Paul II being the most-traveled pope ever:

"Il Papa" was a rolling stone

Hey, a rolling stone never gathers moss.

mtarnowski · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:55 pm

My contribution to the worst-yet list:

Pravda names His Holiness as its "Personality of the Week"

http://english.pravda.ru/
(yes, I know it's not a "real" newapaper...)

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:15 pm

How about Slate's "The mourning after"? Maybe they drank too much of the sacramental wine.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:13 pm

Matthew Grieco wrote:

Source, Bumf?

OK, you caught me...I made it up...so sue me...

adering · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:52 pm

Ringo: daeD s'luaP nhoJ

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:53 pm

Unfortunately, Roy Peter Clark actually wrote this for Poynter:

This pope, in the words of the great Ricky Nelson, was a "travelin' man ... made a lot of stops all over the world."

SusanV · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:07 pm

Make it stop!

vtuss · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:42 pm

Bumfketeer wrote:

Worst yet was on sidebar regarding John Paul II being the most-traveled pope ever:

"Il Papa" was a rolling stone

What about this actual headline on washingtonpost.com on a similar story?:

Bishop of Roam
For John Paul II, the World Was His Parish

By Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, April 4, 2005; Page C01

SuchASlot · **Joined:** Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:01 am **Posts:** 1189

vtuss wrote:

Bishop of Roam
For John Paul II, the World Was His Parish

That should've read: For John Paul II, the World Was His Cloister.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:53 pm

Overheard in the cafeteria today:

"Want some pie for dessert?"

"Is the Pope -- uh -- dead?"

Nessie3 · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:27 am

Accommodations Improve for Arriving Cardinals

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/inter ... r=homepage

Please, lord, tell me I'm not the only one who thinks this is an utter waste of newsprint.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:08 am

I have to disagree, Nessie. Until now it was traditional for conclaves to be deliberately uncomfortable for the cardinal electors, so it's news that the accomodations have changed.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:59 am

Note that there are important points here to keep in mind as the Catholics pick a new pope.

Testy Copy Editors

The Pope ...?

Who is online

What They're Saying

Useful Links