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Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:17 am

Madeline Mann once weighed less than a can of soda as the tiniest surviving newborn known to medicine. Next week, she enters high school as something even more extraordinary - an honor student who plays violin and likes to Rollerblade. (AP)***What's so extraordinary about an honor student who plays violin and likes to Rollerblade?***[ August 19, 2004: Message edited by: blanp ]

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:19 am

I don't have a scale handy. Would someone please weigh a can of soda?

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:29 am

At birth, she wasn't even pint-sized. Born 27 weeks into her mother's pregnancy, she weighed just 9.9 ounces, less than any surviving baby in medical history.

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:20 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
At birth, she wasn't even pint-sized. ... just 9.9 ounces<hr></blockquote>Finally, sufficient data to run a statistically significant regression. One can now say with 95 percent certainty that the girl is a 12-ounce can of Sprite.[ August 19, 2004: Message edited by: SeaRaven ]

jtogyer · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 9:06 am

Would someone kindly tell the AP that soda is measured in fluid ounces, and that fluid ounces are a measure of volume, not weight? Thus the "pint-size" reference doesn't work, either, unless someone measured Baby Madeline's volume. That would entail holding her underwater to see how much fluid she displaced, and I very much doubt the hospital would have allowed it.By the way: I deal regularly with the AP radio wire, and if you think this stuff looks lousy in print, you should hear it read aloud.

andreaa · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 11:32 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr> ***What's so extraordinary about an honor student who plays violin and likes to Rollerblade?***<hr></blockquote>I'm not as put off by this as you are. Certainly the first sentence describes an extraordinary (extra-ordinary) infant. I think that what is extraordinary for this girl is that she grew up to be something so very ordinary despite the odds against her doing so. That's what's extraordinary.

lafollette · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 1:51 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jtogyer:
By the way: I deal regularly with the AP radio wire, and if you think this stuff looks lousy in print, you should hear it read aloud.<hr></blockquote>
Hear, hear! Most AP radio/TV copy has never been read aloud within the confines of your local bureau.

DominEditrix · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:07 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jtogyer:
Would someone kindly tell the AP that soda is measured in fluid ounces, and that fluid ounces are a measure of volume, not weight? Thus the "pint-size" reference doesn't work, either, unless someone measured Baby Madeline's volume. That would entail holding her underwater to see how much fluid she displaced, and I very much doubt the hospital would have allowed it.<hr></blockquote>However, a liquid pint = one pound, so it can be safely said that Baby M weighed less than a can of soda.D.

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:44 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by DominEditrix:
However, a liquid pint = one pound
<hr></blockquote>That's roughly true for water, but I wouldn't assume it holds for other liquids. Even among liquids, densities vary. That's why vinegar settles below oil in salad dressing. I would suspect that pints of different sodas, with different ingredients, would have different weights. To exaggerate the point for illustration, think of a pint of helium vs. a pint of gold dust, or even a pint of water vs. a pint of mercury. I'm not sure whether a pound of newborn flesh fits in a soda can. I'll leave that to the Shakespearean scholars among us.[ August 19, 2004: Message edited by: SeaRaven ]

Oeditpus Rex · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:49 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Andrea Avery:
I think that what is extraordinary for this girl is that she grew up to be something so very ordinary despite the odds against her doing so. That's what's extraordinary.<hr></blockquote>Not much argument there. But the lede didn't say that.

andreaa · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:35 pm

I disagree. I think it says just that. I think it asks that the reader think a little bit, and upon reaching the conclusion ask precisely what the original poster asked: What's so extraordinary about that? The first sentence, which should be fresh in the reader's mind, answers the question.
True, without the first sentence, there is nothing extraordinary about the girl, but I don't think the sentences should be severed from one another and the word "extraordinary" plucked from the second sentence as if the conditions set up in the first sentence don't apply.
Is there really anything wrong with copy being the slightest bit artful? I think the author of this excerpt created an interesting pivot on the word "extraordinary" that suggests what I would guess is an essential element of the story--that in light of the girl's beginning in life, the most ordinary things have become extraordinary. Furthermore, I think it invites readers to experience in miniature what the girl's family likely did: a revision of what they take the word "extraordinary" to mean. I got that from reading the lede, don't you think other readers might?
However, I would suggest taking out "even" so it reads "...something more extraordinary."

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:41 pm

I doubt, Andrea, that many readers, if any, will dwell on that lede and strain to give the writer the assumptions and benefit of the doubt that you do. You are an exceptionally forgiving reader.If you're right and that's what the author meant, then it's lousy execution, because that's not what the author said.And the can of soda comparison would make even a proud pop wince.

andreaa · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:02 pm

Was "proud pop" deliberate? I'd assume.
I feel like an interloper here a lot because I'm not a newspaper copy editor and I didn't become a copy editor by working as a reporter (MFA in Creative Writing instead). I think that may explain a different (perhaps excessive) tolerance for this type of writing.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:04 pm

You are not an interloper. This site is for "newspaper copy editors and their fans."

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2004 5:05 pm

P.S..: "Artful" and "AP" don't belong in the same thread.

Gatekeeper · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:02 am

Heh. The AP folks must love this site. Right, Dapper Dan? ---Gatekeeper-30-

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2004 5:37 am

As a room full of doctors, nurses, friends and family fussed over Madeline Mann for her 15th birthday, the guest of honor seemed slightly embarrassed.
"It's a little annoying," she said. "But cool too."
A top student who starts next week at Conant High School in Hoffman Estates, Madeline is quick with a quip and has a passion for writing, sign language and hanging with her friends.
She is also small for her age--4 feet 7 inches and 60 pounds, less than half the average weight for a girl of 15--and has asthma. Otherwise, there is no sign that when Madeline was born 13 weeks prematurely, she weighed just 9.9 ounces, less than a can of soda. (Chicago Tribune)***"Let's do our own story! But keep that soda-can thing in there.***[ August 20, 2004: Message edited by: blanp ]

jtogyer · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2004 1:50 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by SeaRaven:
That's roughly true for water, but I wouldn't assume it holds for other liquids. Even among liquids, densities vary. That's why vinegar settles below oil in salad dressing. I would suspect that pints of different sodas, with different ingredients, would have different weights. To exaggerate the point for illustration, think of a pint of helium vs. a pint of gold dust, or even a pint of water vs. a pint of mercury. <hr></blockquote>Agreed, and agreed. I believe the old saying is "a pint's a pound, the world around," but it's only (roughly) true for water.The whole story smacks of a phenomenon I'd call "Look at me, ma, I'm writin'!" It's full of "cute" phraseology for the sake of turning "cute" phrases, but the factual inaccuracies throw the whole story into question, at least to my (pedantic) mind.A good story tells itself. It doesn't need to be tarted up with metaphors --- and certainly not with mixed metaphors.[ August 20, 2004: Message edited by: jtogyer ]

DominEditrix · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:35 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by SeaRaven:
That's roughly true for water, but I wouldn't assume it holds for other liquids. Even among liquids, densities vary. That's why vinegar settles below oil in salad dressing. I would suspect that pints of different sodas, with different ingredients, would have different weights.
]<hr></blockquote>The "a pint's a pound, the world around" certainly holds for sodas and for vinegar, and for other liquids whose particulate matter is equally minimal and miscible with water. Is a a few grains off? Of course, but accurate enough to approximate Baby M's avoirdupois as being less than a 12oz. can of Coke. [Remember that the initial reference was specifically to soda, not to random liquifiable substances.]Given that the description was that she "once weighed less than a can of soda", it's completely irrelevant whether she fits into one or not for purposes of the discussion of her weight. As for whether she would fit into a pint container - try taking an equivalent weight of hamburger and stuffing into a 2-cup measure. I guarantee you it will fit - and hamburger is denser than an infant.D.

Dapper Dan · **Joined:** Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:01 am **Posts:** 273

I'm not aware of any other AP folks who read this site, Gatekeeper, but I certainly enjoy it.As far as "A pint's a pound the world around," I met a Scottish man who told me the old saying was "A pint of clear water weighs a pound and a quarter." But he was talking about the imperial pint, which is 20 fluid ounces, not the American pint, which is 16.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:47 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
Madeline Mann once weighed less than a can of soda as the tiniest surviving newborn known to medicine. Next week, she enters high school as something even more extraordinary - an honor student who plays violin and likes to Rollerblade. (AP)***What's so extraordinary about an honor student who plays violin and likes to Rollerblade?***
<hr></blockquote>This seems pretty simple to me:At birth, she weighed less than a can of soda.
It's extraordinary that someone born so small that many years ago lived to have the mental and physical abilities she has -- so extraordinary that the clause saying how extraordinary it is can and should be omitted.Show, don't tell.
The writer showed well, but the writer (or editor) fouled up by not trusting the reporting to tell.

DominEditrix · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:06 pm

In the interests of scientific accuracy:A full can of Sprite weighs 12.91 oz. The empty can weighs .89 oz, for a net weight of 12.04 oz for 12 fluid oz. of Sprite. Similar tests carried out on a can of Diet Coke and a gin & tonic revealed similar results [+/- .03 oz] for 12 fluid oz. One may therefore state confidently that Baby M was outweighed by a can of soda at birth.
.
To determine whether she was pint-sized demands that we define "pint" as liquid [16 fluid oz] or dry [33.6 cubic inches]. As we already know that she weighed less than 12 fluid oz of soda, it is safe to infer that she was somewhat less than pint-sized in the liquid sense[An aside: The human body has approximately the same specific gravity - .99-1.07 - as does water - .94 and pcf - 61-67 for a human, compared to 64 for water.] Taking an average density of 64 lbs per cubic foot [1728 cubic inches] for a human body, one ends up with roughly .59 oz/cubic inch, making the equivalent of a dry pint of human approximately 17.8 oz, again making young Miss M. somewhat less than pint-sized.My point is that an article may be completely scientifically accurate without being written well, but mocking the comparisons with "Geez, how'm I s'posed to know how much a Moxie weighs?" is not productive criticism. Most people do have a sense of the heft of a can of soda, whether they know the precise numbers involved or not. Should a common, everyday object be used for a comparison? Well, 'she weighed less than an onion bagel slathered in cream cheese and piled with lox' ain't gonna play in Alabama. Is "pint-sized" a cliche that ought to be avoided? Oh, yeah. But it isn't totally innacurate, so that isn't the essential flaw in the writing that needs to be addressed.D.D's Third Law of Comparisons: Do not liken human beings to food-stuffs, except a) if you are reporting from Papua NG or b) in the body of a love letter not meant for public consumption. 2nd Corollary to D3LoC: Never tell a small child that it looks good enough to eat. It reminds the child unfavourably of Anthony Hopkins.

jtogyer · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2004 4:22 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by DominEditrix:
Should a common, everyday object be used for a comparison?(...)D's Third Law of Comparisons: Do not liken human beings to food-stuffs, except a) if you are reporting from Papua NG or b) in the body of a love letter not meant for public consumption. 2nd Corollary to D3LoC: Never tell a small child that it looks good enough to eat. It reminds the child unfavourably of Anthony Hopkins.<hr></blockquote>This post left me laughing out loud. Thank you!I think we're in general agreement. As for the common, everyday object that could be used for comparison, I agree: How about a baby? "At birth, Baby Madeline weighed less than a pound, or only about one-tenth of the weight considered healthy for newborns." (I'm pulling that figure off of the top of my head; birth weights of less than 5.5 pounds are usually considered abnormally low.)Now, let's debate the merits of calling it "soda" versus "pop." Myself, I intend to go look for a beer.

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:11 am

Thanks for the lab work, D. I think we'll all agree the important thing here is that Madeline has grown into a happy, healthy quarter-keg of lager.

Oeditpus Rex · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:53 pm

If she were compared to marijuana, what would her street value be?

Powderhorn · **Posted:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:51 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
If she were compared to marijuana, what would her street value be?<hr></blockquote>Much less than the cops claim, since she'd probably be purchased whole, instead of in eighth-of-an-ounce increments.

EMorse · **Posted:** Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:43 pm

That might be a more apt comparison for, say, Courtney Love.

ramblerdan · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:24 pm

>Similar tests carried out on a can of Diet Coke and a
>gin & tonic revealed similar results [+/- .03 oz]
>for 12 fluid oz. Data not admissible because not reproducible. My first gin & tonic weighing gave similar result; second was off a bit. Third weighing was significantly off-kilter, fourth inconclusive. Fifth weighing ended the experiment, as well as anything else that day.

DominEditrix · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:23 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by ramblerdan:
Data not admissible because not reproducible. My first gin & tonic weighing gave similar result; second was off a bit. Third weighing was significantly off-kilter, fourth inconclusive. Fifth weighing ended the experiment, as well as anything else that day.<hr></blockquote>One must admire personal sacrifices made in the name of pure science.D.

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:59 am

Just think, before we know it, our little soda can will be ready to settle down with Joe Six-Pack. It hardly seems possible. ... Nor does it seem possible that the boss man hasn't closed this topic yet.
[ August 24, 2004: Message edited by: SeaRaven ]

tiptoe39 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:55 am

I am now officially a fan of this thread. Bravo, all of you. *applause*If only the posts at Yahoo News had this kind of intelligence. (Not that I read them at all, mind you - ahem ahem - let me get back to work now.)Jen

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:06 pm

One might wish to pass a passing compliment to Mr Blanchard whose board has grown to some degree, as the archives would indicate.

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