We need 8 inches more, so pad it...

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:16 am

Here's a particularly bad bit of sportswriting from the AP, covering the home run derby.***Even among the glittery stars, Bonds shined the brightest: the light from the cameras reflected off the diamond crucifix earring on his left earlobe.
And this graf makes me think the writer's editor called him back and asked for a few more badly punctuated lines:***If the ball has been juiced in recent years, this was the appropriate setting for such a gathering, Minute Maid Park.One more thought: There is no goddamned need in the world to run every word of these stories. Someone on the desk (I read this in the Vancouver Sun...I am on vacation, which might explain why I have time to waste reading a story about a home run derby) should have snipped this shit out. And I'm growing increasingly testy at the claim from layout editors that a story cannot become shorter for layout reasons.This stuff needed to be cut out.

SusanV · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:09 pm

Amen. And I would bet good money that earring is not a crucifix, either, but merely a cross.Heaven help us.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:30 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
.. And I'm growing increasingly testy at the claim from layout editors that a story cannot become shorter for layout reasons.This stuff needed to be cut out.<hr></blockquote>I know this one from both sides of the production process. On occasion a difficult layout will make this tricky. But generally the testiness you show is justified. On the suburban paper part of my job, cutting a par is going to cause huge dramas I tend to go for the option of completing the job right through the copy subbing stage then ask my collegue to pick it up again and treat it as though it hasn't been copy subbed. The regional daily folk(where I'm purely a copy sub) seem to have a grip on how not to create the problem that makes you testy.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:41 pm

1. Good point re cross/crucifix.2. I do understand that editing horseshit and nonsense out of a story can be a problem for the layout desk. But our job as editors should be to present a good "product," which we are not doing if we let grafs about "glittery" stars, dangling crucifixes and "juiced" ballparks in just because they fill space to suit a layout need.[ July 14, 2004: Message edited by: Bumfketeer ]

Gatekeeper · **Posted:** Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:25 am

Heh. I have the best of both worlds â€” editing copy and doing layouts.Gatekeeper-30-

jmwalsh · **Posted:** Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:59 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gatekeeper:
Heh. I have the best of both worlds â€” editing copy and doing layouts.Gatekeeper-30-<hr></blockquote>So do I. That's normal over here.J...

Paul Morgan · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:42 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
1. Good point re cross/crucifix.2. I do understand that editing horseshit and nonsense out of a story can be a problem for the layout desk. But our job as editors should be to present a good "product," which we are not doing if we let grafs about "glittery" stars, dangling crucifixes and "juiced" ballparks in just because they fill space to suit a layout need.[ July 14, 2004: Message edited by: Bumfketeer ]<hr></blockquote>I am a designer and I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly. Part of the problem these days is the advent of the design specialist. A lot of newbies coming out of college now don't ever have to work on the copy desk or write a story or a headline. To some of them the words are merely filler around the pictures. As an organically-grown designer who came up through the writing and editing ranks, it really pisses me off to see these people move up the chain without getting any of that gritty experience. Somewhere down the line (if we aren't already there) there's going to be a major disconnect in this business between the "visual" people and the "word" people.My little rant and my not-so-veiled bitterness aside, there is ALWAYS a design solution to accommodate a story that gets longer or shorter. Design is here to serve the words, not the other way around. And this is a 3-time SND winner talking.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:05 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Perilous:
Design is here to serve the words, not the other way around. <hr></blockquote>I like this guy.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:34 pm

No kidding. Is the SND going to take his card away now?Words are important. Design is important. But the words should win in any apparent impasse. This should not be controversial. You're a rare breed, Perilous, and your publication is lucky to have you.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:53 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Perilous:
there is ALWAYS a design solution to accommodate a story that gets longer or shorter. Design is here to serve the words, not the other way around. And this is a 3-time SND winner talking.<hr></blockquote>
Yes there is but one gets annoyed when reporters use that as an excuse in an attempt to file loose copy that's in excess of what they have been told the story is worth.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:01 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
No kidding. Is the SND going to take his card away now?
. But the words should win in any apparent impasse<hr></blockquote>
Not when it gets to the stage of a reporter (this a hypothetical of course) telling me what colour socks the bus driver on the 9pm 408 service was wearing on the night of July 14, 1985.
I've never encountered the case of a compelling story where copy needs and design needs conflicted.
If needs be, the story gets more space, even if that requires a remake.
As for people who won't write to requested length on routine matters ... a careers adviser could assist them.

Paul Morgan · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:05 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Paul Wiggins:

Yes there is but one gets annoyed when reporters use that as an excuse in an attempt to file loose copy that's in excess of what they have been told the story is worth.<hr></blockquote>Loose copy sucks. I trust the editors (and my own read) to tighten the copy to where it should be. Unfortunately, I think there's been a real shift in the business. Somewhere along the way we forgot the inverted pyramid and length became synonymous with talent. Now writers think they have all day to tell a story. And sometimes editors let them.Does this mean we drain ALL color ala Gannett? Of course not. But when a photo, factbox, pullquote or graphic can help tell the story better and more efficiently I'm going to ask that we trim a story to make that happen. This should always be a discussion, not a demand.None of that precludes the essential truth that design is here to serve the words, the stories and the photos. The basic tenets of editing apply to visual journalism as well - efficiency, clarity, impact. If a designer ever tells you he wants to do something because it "looks cool," feel free to jump in his face. He deserves it.

Jamal · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:23 pm

Interesting topic...We have problems with this from time to time here. I agree that there's no excuse for loose copy in general, but at the same time, since we're constantly working against the clock, it can really be a challenge to make copy fit at the last minute if it's too short. The best solution, obviously, would be to make the designer aware of the issue ASAP so he/she can adjust. But that can be difficult, especially if a page is tight and has to roll quickly. So I'm curious as to what some of you experienced designers do in such situations. If copy doesn't fill the space you need and your page is due in say, five minutes, do you just grit your teeth and send it through, or do you get "testy" and refuse to move the story before the loose ends are cut?

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:05 pm

I usually ask the desk chief (or deputy editor if I'm the desk chief) ''what's our best option here'' and the problem resolves itself by them saying spike it, cut it or rewrite it Even if the page is due in five minutes' time in theory, in practice the production editor liaising with the press room can buy you the time you need. I usually try to keep ahead of where we need to be so the prepress folk have the abiliy to cope with something dropping late.

Jamal · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:46 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Paul Wiggins:
I usually ask the desk chief (or deputy editor if I'm the desk chief) ''what's our best option here'' and the problem resolves itself by them saying spike it, cut it or rewrite it Even if the page is due in five minutes' time in theory, in practice the production editor liaising with the press room can buy you the time you need. I usually try to keep ahead of where we need to be so the prepress folk have the abiliy to cope with something dropping late.<hr></blockquote>That's true, and that's another option I failed to mention, though it's usually a less desirable one (at least for the prepress people).

redpenman · **Joined:** Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:01 am **Posts:** 65

Hello everyone ... I'm new here and thought I'd jump in with a response. I edit and design, so I get the "best" of both worlds in that respect, too. I enjoy a challenge with short copy as well, but have had a run of months (new line editor came aboard) when this became a crisis.After some concerns were voiced, we got straightened out and now have reversed trend and get diarrhea of the keyboard --- I'm talking absolute drivel in some cases.The problem I've encountered is that the reporters feel that every word they spew forth is gold ... and initial reads are not relaying problems. Their editors aren't piping up when copy is too loose, so the reporter goes on believing they must be one hell of a writer.When we get ahold of it and go to work, we have to trim major fat just to shoehorn a page together (30 inches on a routine city council meeting is just not necessary!)So the reporter, in turn, becomes offended when their stories are tightened up. It's to a point now where any alteration of a story will upset some of our writers.I guess what my longwindedness is getting at is ... there are going to be people getting pissed off at both ends --- those who must deal with a story that's entirely too long; the person who wrote said story who wants an explanation as to what happened; the new line editor who was hired to tighten copy but was told to back off the 6-inch front pagers and now is pissed... it goes on and on....[ July 23, 2004: Message edited by: redpenman ]

newsdesigner · **Posted:** Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:14 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Perilous:
Design is here to serve the words, not the other way around. <hr></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
Words are important. Design is important. But the words should win in any apparent impasse. This should not be controversial. You're a rare breed, Perilous ... <hr></blockquote>Well, no, Perilous isn't rare. I know it's easy and tempting to think of designers as bubbleheaded arteests who couldn't tell a semicolon from stereotype, but it's hardly reality. Sure, there are bubbleheaded arteests out there. And there are inexperienced designers who may make a bad call on deadline. I suspect there are also some bitter old burnouts warehoused on a copy desk somewhere.I have never worked with a designer that would disagree with Perilous' sentiment. And if you went over and asked the 650+ people at VisualEditors.com, I highly doubt you would find very many there, either. Many of us may have differing philosophies on newspapering, but we are all on the same team.Now, group hug.

grouch_in_training · **Posted:** Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:19 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by newsdesigner.com:

I know it's easy and tempting to think of designers as bubbleheaded arteests who couldn't tell a semicolon from stereotype, but it's hardly reality.
<hr></blockquote>That perception comes from the widespread practice of having the copy desk design pages as well as edit copy. At many papers, this is reality.When you do both, both suffer. I cannot begin to describe my frustration over stupid errors I've missed (or made) because of the volume of pages that I had to design, the shitstorm of stories that went on them that I was expected to edit and the time given to get the finished pages to prepress. As an added insult, where I work, the copy desk is the only area of the newsroom required to keep a written log of when weâ€™ve signed off every page (because we have a blamestorming prepress Nazi in management). Add to this the incomprehensibility of moving up deadlines for the copy desk but rolling back deadlines for reporters to file â€œbreakingâ€ stories.Add to this managementâ€™s inability to comprehend the time it takes to get the page in on deadline IF: 1. A. The late photo being shot is worthy of the hole you left for it. 1. B. The photographer remembers what shape you agreed the photo would be; 2. The reporter writing the â€œbreakingâ€ story that lands 10 minutes before deadline knows what it means to write for agreed-upon story length; 3. Your computer doesnâ€™t crash when you do the final spell-check before printing proofs.This is why stupid things make it into print. Despite managementâ€™s professed dislike of running corrections, the REAL hand-slapping only starts when deadlines are missed.Sorry. Last night was rather difficult. Waiter! Can I get some cheese with this?[ July 23, 2004: Message edited by: grouch_in_training ]

majorbabs · **Posted:** Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:52 pm

Boy, I sure don't remember any situations like that being mentioned in my J-School classes. It must be really unique to your paper. :)

Paul Morgan · **Posted:** Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:53 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by majorbabs:
Boy, I sure don't remember any situations like that being mentioned in my J-School classes. It must be really unique to your paper. :) <hr></blockquote>Welcome to the biz. It's not common at bigger papers, but at the 150,000 daily I was at before I came here we edited all our own copy, wrote all our own heds and designed several pages a night. Of course, this was in sports so it was OK to screw us.

Jamal · **Posted:** Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:59 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by majorbabs:
Boy, I sure don't remember any situations like that being mentioned in my J-School classes. It must be really unique to your paper. :) <hr></blockquote>LOL Believe him. His paper is definitely not unique.

grouch_in_training · **Posted:** Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:56 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by majorbabs:
Boy, I sure don't remember any situations like that being mentioned in my J-School classes. It must be really unique to your paper. :) <hr></blockquote>Touche. Thanks for snapping me out of my pity party. Maybe tonight will be better.

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