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"Liberal bias"
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Author:  Bumfketeer [ Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  "Liberal bias"
Curious how others here respond, if at all, when neighbors and other garden-variety assholes we come across in this life start clamoring about the "liberal media."<p>Some of these people seem to think that we are actually rewriting the truth in our spare time on the desk.
Author:  Chriss [ Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
I don't worry about it all that much since I'm not a liberal. I'm more to the center. Or more accurately I may have liberal point of view on some issues and more conservative on others.<p> It has been my experience that conservatives will complain media are too liberal and liberals will complain we are too conservative. Same thing happens with the two high schools in my town. One always thinks we're giving the other too much coverage. In general, I think readers always want to see their "team" pushed more. It's the nature of the beast.
Author:  Matthew Grieco [ Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
That said, I encourage anyone who thinks the New York Times is liberal to read their lead Reagan death story. What a mindnumbingly sycophantic string of tripe.
Author:  Bumfketeer [ Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Amen to that.
Author:  Jackie [ Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
Curious how others here respond, if at all, when neighbors and other garden-variety assholes we come across in this life start clamoring about the "liberal media."<p>Some of these people seem to think that we are actually rewriting the truth in our spare time on the desk.<hr></blockquote><p>What amazes me (although I should know better than to be amazed) is when I in turn ask those people, "Liberal in what way?" or "Liberal how?" they end up just sputtering because they don't have an answer. They just know, by darned, that the media is liberal and it is biased.<p>The one that's making me roll my eyes lately is accusations that the media aren't printing the "truth" about Iraq. Wonder what the hell it is they think I'm covering up?
Author:  bwalsh [ Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
You're covering things up the same way you cover up all those "Plane Arrives Safely; None Killed" stories.
Author:  Jackie [ Mon Jun 07, 2004 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bill Walsh:
You're covering things up the same way you cover up all those "Plane Arrives Safely; None Killed" stories.<hr></blockquote><p>Shhhhhhhhh!
Author:  Gatekeeper [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Those who wish to label us annoy me to no end.<p>I've got better things to do with my time than twist stories to so-and-so viewpoint, re-write them to protect our corporate overlords, and censor them to protect the government.<p>Such as meeting deadline.<p>Gatekeeper<p>-30-
Author:  Wayne Countryman [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Try this:<p>1. Ask person what he or she thinks of Abraham Lincoln.
2. Ask whether Lincoln was a liberal or a conservative.
Author:  Matthew Grieco [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
The corollary to Bumfketeer's query is: How do you respond when someone claims Fox News doesn't have a right-wing bias? This to me is the more obnoxious nettle.
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
How do you respond when someone claims Fox News doesn't have a right-wing bias? <hr></blockquote><p>"Fox News? What is this 'Fox News' of which you speak?"
Author:  Matthew Grieco [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
This is the world we live in, blanp. Sorry.
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
You asked me how I would respond. Try it. It works.
Author:  Matthew Grieco [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Sorry, I misinterpreted you. I failed to notice the external quotation marks.<p>But of course, I'm generally in the opposite situation. I bring up Fox News as the example of bias.
Author:  bwalsh [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
Sorry, I misinterpreted you. I failed to notice the external quotation marks.<p>But of course, I'm generally in the opposite situation. I bring up Fox News as the example of bias.<hr></blockquote><p>But of course indeed. Ever been in a situation where someone kept bumping into you accidentally, or maybe spitting on you as he talked, until finally you decided to haul off and slug him in a decidedly non-accidental fashion?<p>No? Yeah, OK, well, maybe I have a problem.<p>Anyway, such is my theory of "liberal" and conservative media. The outlets that get criticized as having a liberal bias are sometimes guilty of that, but it's not part of some grand plan. Fox News and the Washington Times were created to "balance" things with deliberate, out-and-out right-wing bias.
Author:  pzicari [ Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
For a long time I used to quip that the papers where I had worked weren't well enough organized to keep a bias going for more than a day or two. <p>Now I think we are biased toward irony, easy catchphrases and things we hope will shock or move readers, especially if we can debunk what we think might be conventional wisdom. <p>We, newspapers as a whole, might have a bias toward secularism. We in Cleveland have sufficiently anatagonized the bishop that the official diocesan Web site features the following:<p>Plain Dealer again distorts facts about Diocese of Cleveland in story about Boston closings<p>A May 26th Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper story about the Archdiocese of Boston closing parishes included more misinformation about the Diocese of Cleveland ....<p>[ June 09, 2004: Message edited by: Pete Zicari ]</p>
Author:  Gatekeeper [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
My attitude toward religious types — which is separate from genuine faith, IMO — might be more even-handed if 8 of 10 "religious" folks weren't simply using their so-called faith to seek power in one form or another.<p>Yeah, I'm definitely secular, but faithful, too, if that makes any sense.<p>Gatekeeper<p>-30-
Author:  lafollette [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
If it is posited that "liberals" are generally in favor of government intervention in business matters and are generally suspicious of power in private hands, then there's plenty of evidence that many reporters will tend to exhibit a "liberal" bias. This is perfectly natural:<p>1. Many or most reporters are college-educated, yet salaries for most journalists are well below the norm for college-educated folks. The kinds of people who prefer higher incomes by nature will tend to be pro-business (or "conservative") with greater frequency than the kinds of people who are willing to sacrifice some income in order to perform a "public service" like journalism.<p>2. The wall between "church" and "state" (advertising vs. editorial) in many news organizations tends to make reporters suspicious of businesses generally. Business interests, again, tend to be "conservative," and thus their opponents "liberal."<p>3. "Liberal" organizations like Greenpeace, NOW, and PIRG are much savvier about publicity and public relations than Cato, Hudson, or the Heritage Foundation. Better publicity means more coverage. More coverage tends to make news consumers perceive a bias on the part of the reporting agency.<p>4. Ask yourself: When seeking a source or basing a story on a report, are reporters more likely to call on government employees (like the state AG's office, the local EPA spokesperson, or a professor of history at State U) or on private-sector representatives? Be honest: It's more often than not the public-sector source that is chosen. Public-sector reps are, by their nature, generally in favor of government action (without it, they don't keep their jobs). This reinforces a pro-government-action perception of bias.<p>5. During Sunday night's hourly ABC News radio reports, the preponderance started with John Kerry's reax to Reagan's death, including an actuality of Kerry praising Reagan's "optimism." Bush made similar remarks, but none were featured for five straight hours. <p>Is there an intentional, organized effort to skew reportage to the left? I don't believe it any more than I believed Hillary Clinton's "vast right-wing conspiracy."<p>But I submit to you that there is a natural tendency, built into the nature of reporting, to favor patterns that have a "liberal" or pro-government/anti-business slant.<p>The WSJ knows it. USA Today has started to learn.
Author:  lafollette [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
Curious how others here respond, if at all, when neighbors and other garden-variety assholes we come across in this life start clamoring about the "liberal media."<hr></blockquote>
Perhaps they got that impression when you called them "assholes" for calling you "liberal." Think about what you just wrote, Bumfketeer.<p>I spent plenty of time on the reporting side of "the media" and heard the same comments you do. I always thought my reporting was generally unbiased, but my politics are decidedly libertarian (most people would call that "conservative," even though that's only half-true). But instead of calling those people "assholes," I usually tried addressing their specific concerns about specific stories. <p>Ever heard the one about attracting more flies with honey? Try it sometime. You'd be surprised at how many readers you might stop alienating.
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Like I said elsewhere, I figure the best we can do is try to keep stupid stuff out of the paper.
Author:  Bumfketeer [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Phil is right, of course. The problem, I think, is that some people think journalism is some kind of cult activity.<p>I explained to someone who was attacking my paper's "liberal" bias that it's just a job and that we go home to our families afterward. Oddly, he'd never thought of it that way. Seems he thought it was more of a clubhouse for freaks of some sort.
Author:  Lee [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr> Seems he thought it was more of a clubhouse for freaks of some sort.
<hr></blockquote><p>You've never looked around your newsroom and wondered how all of these weird people manage to get a paper out every day?
Author:  Oeditpus Rex [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by lafollette:
More coverage tends to make news consumers perceive a bias on the part of the reporting agency.<hr></blockquote>So does less coverage. If the media backed off on reporting, say, the number of GIs killed in Iraq, conservatives would probably like it and liberals wouldn't. "Bias" depends on point of view. Obviously.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>During Sunday night's hourly ABC News radio reports, the preponderance started with John Kerry's reax to Reagan's death, including an actuality of Kerry praising Reagan's "optimism." Bush made similar remarks, but none were featured for five straight hours.<hr></blockquote>Dunno about ABC Radio, but CBS Radio has been running Bushquote/otherguy/Bushquote/otherguy, etc. (Saturday evening, W pronounced "tyranny" "tie-ranny.")
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Jim Shea isn't my favorite writer, but his column today is relevant:<p>On a fairly regular basis, newspapers are accused of acting in concert to slant their coverage of President Bush.
This is, of course, true.
Although newspapers generally act independently, when it comes to President Bush they take great pains to always be on the same page. ...
Copy editors who handle political stories are mainly selected on their ability to qualify headlines. This talent is important in the event that there is positive news about President Bush that cannot be buried deep inside the paper. You have no doubt seen their work: 500,000 Jobs Created in May, But a Guy in Ohio Is Still Out of Work.<p>[ June 09, 2004: Message edited by: blanp ]</p>
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
This thread has attracted more attention.
Author:  SusanV [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
All those people oughta step back and take a deep breath--and realize that just because we express opinions here does not mean that we inject them into the stories we are editing! Grrrrrrr.
Author:  paulwiggins [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Susan is right.to stock line is that I'm not paid to have opinions.<p>Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employer but bloody good ones nonetheless.
Author:  Bumfketeer [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Well, after reading their posts, I am glad these folks are completely unbiased.
Author:  Bumfketeer [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
COPY DESKS -- THE NEW RED MENACE
Author:  Matthew Grieco [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Every umpire has a favorite baseball team. That doesn't mean he favors that team when he calls games.<p>I'm an ardent liberal, and I would defy anyone to go through the hundreds of wire pages I put together during the 2000 election and find any trace of liberal bias.<p>It's an insult not to me but to the profession of editing when people assume that we're not capable of turning off our politics at work.
Author:  Bumfketeer [ Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Amen, Matt. Let's see if your post makes it to "American Digest."
Author:  Jackie [ Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SusanV:
All those people oughta step back and take a deep breath--and realize that just because we express opinions here does not mean that we inject them into the stories we are editing! Grrrrrrr.<hr></blockquote><p>Amen, sister. People keep giving me money to choose and edit wire stories -- that includes politics -- for newspapers because, dammit, I am committed to accuracy and fairness and balance, period, and it shows in the final product. I'm good at what I do, and I'm proud of it. Trolling this board for "proof" that the media is biased in whatever direction is pathetic.
Author:  Jackie [ Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
I'm an ardent liberal, and I would defy anyone to go through the hundreds of wire pages I put together during the 2000 election and find any trace of liberal bias.<p>It's an insult not to me but to the profession of editing when people assume that we're not capable of turning off our politics at work.<hr></blockquote><p>Yeah. What he said.
Author:  Bumfketeer [ Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jackie:
<p>Amen, sister. .<hr></blockquote><p>Any more "amens" on this thread and we are going to appear on a thread in "Atheist Digest."
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
How "liberal" are the nation's newsrooms? What does "liberal" mean, anyway? Should editors embark on an ideological affirmative action program? All of these questions, and more, grow out of the recent Pew survey that seemed to sustain arguments that newsrooms tilt left, in composition if not coverage.
Or is this mainly bunk? In the months ahead, E&P will attempt to answer all of these questions, and many others, in this very contested, and very important, area. (Editor & Publisher)<p>***And fail.***
Author:  Gatekeeper [ Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
This thread has attracted more attention.<hr></blockquote><p>Hmm. That was an interesting thread ...<p>Gatekeeper<p>-30-
Author:  juliette14 [ Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
diefenbaker:
copy editors, so lower on the totem... <p>I do appreciate this guy from edodo. So lower, we are.
Author:  Gatekeeper [ Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
^^^Yeah! Ignore the copy editors. We're mostly harmless. Really. **hides big stick**<p>Gatekeeper<p>-30-
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
It is absurd to think of any mainsteam U.S. media as "leftist."
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
I work at the Washington Post. I have known leftists. The Washington Post is not leftist.
Author:  Lee [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
When I was reporting [right out of college], I definitely had a personal left bias. I always made an effort to "write it up straight" so no one could accuse me of bias in my reporting.
I remember covering a conference where a very right-wing speaker raised some controversial points. I wrote it straight. The next day, the local communists congratulated me for "showing those right-wing bastards up", and the right-wingers congratulated me for "putting those commie bastards in their place".
The readers read what they want to read...
The features editor loved it when I copy-edited the editorial/letters page. Because I thought our editorial and letters writers were a bunch of right-wing fanatics; I'd write heads that were completely opposite to my own opinions and, somewhere in the translation, would always imbue the heads with irony.<p>[ June 24, 2004: Message edited by: Lee ]</p>
Author:  Wayne Countryman [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
I meant to ask, blanp, what exactly is a leftist by your way of thinking?<hr></blockquote><p>Our Fearless Leader no doubt will give us his answer soon. In the meantime, I'll offer observations:<p>In these particularly polarized times, opponents of liberals label them leftists or left-wingers, and opponents of conservatives label them right-wingers. I think of the "wings" as being nearer extremes. And extremists seldom win elections. This labeling works as a smear tactic.<p>Exactly what a "liberal" is, and what a "conservative" is, aside from a vague label, is beyond me. As best as i can tell, the meanings have changed over the past few decades, after changing several decades before that. <p>Was George Washington a liberal? Was Lincoln? Was Stalin? Was Mao? Was Nixon? Is John McCain? Is Kerry? I could argue that all were or are liberals; or, I could argue that each was or is a conservative. I'd feel honest either way. Which shows how foolish this labeling is.<p>How loyal to its ideology must one be to keep the label?<p>Why must publications go along with this labeling, which is neither exact nor free of partisanship?<p>[ June 24, 2004: Message edited by: Wayne Countryman ]</p>
Author:  Tim Lawson [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
Liberals with land mines. O happy ordinance!<hr></blockquote><p>Sigh.
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Guevara qualified as a leftist.
Author:  Jamal [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
The paper I work at gets the "we're too liberal" complaint everyday, so I've learned to just brush it off. Try to please all and you'll please none.<p>It's funny that I'm seeing this topic. Just today, a reader called in and said that my paper, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, "is very much to blame" if the U.S. fails in Iraq.
Author:  Bumfketeer [ Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
I live in a heavily Republican community. Don't tell anyone, but I am going to volunteer at the polls and bring along tainted apple cider to serve to voters.
Author:  Oeditpus Rex [ Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jamal:
Just today, a reader called in and said that my paper, the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, "is very much to blame" if the U.S. fails in Iraq.<hr></blockquote>Thanks for passing that along. I've been wondering who should be held responsible.
Author:  Jamal [ Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
Thanks for passing that along. I've been wondering who should be held responsible.<hr></blockquote><p>It gets better Rex. We ran the story about a document that links Iraq with Osama bin Laden today, and a guy called in accusing us of "right-wing" bias! WE JUST CAN'T WIN!!!
Author:  Oeditpus Rex [ Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jamal:
\We ran the story about a document that links Iraq with Osama bin Laden today, and a guy called in accusing us of "right-wing" bias! WE JUST CAN'T WIN!!!<hr></blockquote>"(T)here'll never be any reward. There'll just be the next thing to do."<p>~ Robert Walker, "Ensign Pulver"
Author:  Matthew Grieco [ Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jamal:
<p>It gets better Rex. We ran the story about a document that links Iraq with Osama bin Laden today, and a guy called in accusing us of "right-wing" bias! WE JUST CAN'T WIN!!!<hr></blockquote><p>It's very simple:<p>"Sir, today the picture of Bush was a little bit bigger than the picture of Kerry, so yes, we have a right-wing bias today. Tomorrow Kerry's picture will be bigger since it's an even date, and that means we're liberals that day."<p>(I was informed while a wire editor during the 2000 election, from readers at both ends of the political spectrum, that relative photo size is one of the best indicators of what a paper's bias is)
Author:  Wayne Countryman [ Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:

(I was informed while a wire editor during the 2000 election, from readers at both ends of the political spectrum, that relative photo size is one of the best indicators of what a paper's bias is)<hr></blockquote><p>Yup. Readers will also strenuously protest the use of photos in which facial expressions seem unflattering. Photos' settings and other physical factors also are perused. And, sometimes readers have a point.<p>Different newsroom personnel have different perspectives. When Hillary Rodham Clinton was campaigning for the Senate a few years ago, my paper ran a story and photo that dominated Pg. 3A. When I read proofread the page the photo bothered me. The busy slot editor asked me to deal with it. <p>The photo editor saw no problem. The news editor said, "Uh oh." The designer, perhaps the most innocent person in the newsroom, said, "Oh, my word, it looks like that guy's copping a feel! I didn't notice that on my screen when I laid it out." <p>The photo editor still didn't see a problem.<p>A guy standing behind the candidate probably was reaching to shake someone's hand. But on paper, in two dimensions, the position of his hand and the look on her face suggested something else.<p>The photo was subbed.<p>Matthew brought up something that drives me nuts: Readers (and pundits and activists) getting riled on the basis of one day's play of stories, photos, etc., without knowing or acknowledging the long run.
Author:  SusanV [ Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
We did a cover story recently about Bush and Kerry and the importance of the year 1972 to them. We got really slammed with complaints about our implied bias, because the cover showed a rather unkempt-looking Kerry, with long hair and in civvies, while Bush was in a National Guard uniform. But the fact is that there is NO photograph of Bush in civvies taken in 1972. Period. And Kerry was already out of the service by then. We were showing them as they were at the time, but the letter writers--and believe me, it was a deluge--either didn't get it or chose to ignore it.
Author:  Matthew Grieco [ Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wayne Countryman:
<p>Yup. Readers will also strenuously protest the use of photos in which facial expressions seem unflattering. Photos' settings and other physical factors also are perused. And, sometimes readers have a point.<hr></blockquote><p>The aforementioned Sarasota Herald-Tribune had an interesting response to this during the 2000 campaign. Apparently they had received so many complaints about unfavorable mug shots of George W. Bush that they felt the need to reply. So the managing editor (maybe it was even the executive editor; my memory is fuzzy) wrote a column explaining how mug shots are stored and reused, and in a box alongside the story were eight different mugs of Bush the paper had recently used, some of which were allegedly "favorable" and some of which were allegedly not.<p>I can't remember if they used the kicker "The Many Faces of George W. Bush" over the box, but for some reason I'm not totally confident that they didn't.<p>[ June 27, 2004: Message edited by: Matthew Grieco ]</p>
Author:  Oeditpus Rex [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SusanV:
We got really slammed with complaints about our implied bias, because the cover showed a rather unkempt-looking Kerry, with long hair and in civvies, while Bush was in a National Guard uniform.<hr></blockquote>Your implication or their inference?<p>I remember thinking when I saw that cover, "Oh, boy, are they gonna get it" -- not because it presented a bias, but because it begged for bias to be read into it. <p>And I was angry when Zuckerman apologized for it, since -- like you said, Susan -- that's how they looked in '72. To use a different photo of either would've been to misrepresent that. <p>If people are determined to read with an agenda, there's not a damned thing we can do to change it.
Author:  SusanV [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
Your implication or their inference?<p>I remember thinking when I saw that cover, "Oh, boy, are they gonna get it" -- not because it presented a bias, but because it begged for bias to be read into it. <p>And I was angry when Zuckerman apologized for it, since -- like you said, Susan -- that's how they looked in '72. To use a different photo of either would've been to misrepresent that. <p>If people are determined to read with an agenda, there's not a damned thing we can do to change it.<hr></blockquote> Their inference, I should have made clear. Our photo eds spent an inordinate amount of time looking for a photo of Bush in civvies so that we wouldn't appear to be biased.<p>It was Brian Duffy, not Mort, who apologized, BTW. I'm not a fan of apologies, but there are times it is better to keep quiet, and this was one of 'em.<p>[ June 28, 2004: Message edited by: SusanV ]</p>
Author:  jjmoney62 [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Well, let's not go overboard the other way. Perhaps there was room for measured criticism. And for more thought going into the final package.<p>For instance, the publication didn't necessarily have to box itself into the conceit of limiting their image to 1972. Or if they felt they had to, they could have reconsidered after realizing that the images would look extremely incongruous. <p>Even 30 years ago, future presidents were very aware of image and future "political viability." It's not unreasonable for a reader to express concern about the overarching image being a picture of a "war hero" in civvies next to a "national guard deserter" dressed like GI Joe.
Author:  SusanV [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Well, let's not go overboard the other way. Perhaps there was room for measured criticism. And for more thought going into the final package.<p>For instance, the publication didn't necessarily have to box itself into the conceit of limiting their image to 1972. Or if they felt they had to, they could have reconsidered after realizing that the images would look extremely incongruous. <p>Even 30 years ago, future presidents were very aware of image and future "political viability." It's not unreasonable for a reader to express concern about the overarching image being a picture of a "war hero" in civvies next to a "national guard deserter" dressed like GI Joe.<hr></blockquote><p>The article itself was about the year 1972 and how it was a pivotal year for each of them, so that's the reason for the images of the same time period.
Author:  jjmoney62 [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
i realize that.<p>my point is that you were boxed into that visually. and at some point, some staffers probably reacted like Oed, and knew it would be perceived poorly, and maybe that should have been a red flag that there was a flaw in the overall package. <p>just the fact that you said the only image you could find of Bush was of him in uniform is a problem. it doesn't mean it kills the project, but it does open you up to (mild) criticism.<p>maybe this whole thing could have been avoided if the maestro concept was used.
Author:  SusanV [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
i realize that.<p>my point is that you were boxed into that visually. and at some point, some staffers probably reacted like Oed, and knew it would be perceived poorly, and maybe that should have been a red flag that there was a flaw in the overall package. <p>just the fact that you said the only image you could find of Bush was of him in uniform is a problem. it doesn't mean it kills the project, but it does open you up to (mild) criticism.<p>maybe this whole thing could have been avoided if the maestro concept was used.<hr></blockquote> maestro concept? do i want to know what that is?<p>[ June 28, 2004: Message edited by: SusanV ]</p>
Author:  Phillip Blanchard [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SusanV:
maestro concept? do i want to know what that is?<p><hr></blockquote><p>No.
Author:  SusanV [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
Jeez. I had completely forgotten about that. And with good reason, too.<p>We're a magazine. We don't work the way a newspaper does. And it wouldn't have made a difference in this case anyway. Trust me.
Author:  jjmoney62 [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
as the late, maligned Irv Kupcinet once said: That was a joke, son.
Author:  SusanV [ Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: "Liberal bias"
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
as the late, maligned Irv Kupcinet once said: That was a joke, son.<hr></blockquote>
(smacking self upside head) D'oh! <p>Sorry, I think my sense of humor was paralyzed by the ant spray. It'll be back later.
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