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Raines getting just 24 percent of the vote is ridiculous. He's the second-best leadoff man in history behind Rickey Henderson, who WILL get in on the first ballot next year. Pardon Raines all to hell for having his best years in non-mediagenic Montreal.

The biggest debates for me were Tim Raines, who obviously was overshadowed by Rickey Henderson, but also if you take Vince Coleman's five top years, I would say he outperformed Raines, too, and I don't see Coleman as a Hall of Famer.

I would be remiss if I let the comparison to Coleman go by without comment. Yes, they both played left field, led off, and stole a lot of bases. But, other than that, the difference between Raines and Coleman is like night and day. Raines hit .294/.385/.425; Coleman, .264/.324/.345. That's 141 points of OPS. Over the course of their careers, Raines got on base twice as often and had twice as many total bases as Coleman.

I know you referenced their top five years, but the truth is that Raines (.334/.413/.476 with an OPS+ of 151) was a much better player than Coleman (.292/.340/.400 with an OPS+ of 104) at their respective peaks, too.

Raines will have to get in line for me, behind Dawson and Murphy and Rice, while I still try and sort those three out.

Author:	jjmoney62 [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:	About time
Goose Gossage made it into the hall of fame. As we've said before, he deserves the honor. Just falling short (72.2%) was Jim Rice. Others who can't quite get there (and it wouldn't be a crime if they didn't: Andre Dawson (65.9%) and Bert Blyleven (61.1%). Two pitchers you can make a good case for came in 5th and 6th: Lee Smith (43.3%) and Jack Morris (42.9%). A moment of silence for Shawon Dunston (class of '81) and what might have been.

Author:	Redaktor [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:
Congrats to Goose -- it's hard to get in as a reliever. I got my baseball-fan chops by watching the mid-80s Cubs so I would be happy to see Dawson (who was past his prime by the time I was watching him) get in. It's a crime that Blyleven hasn't been elected -- but he got a pretty good jump in this round of balloting. Edited because I misread and thought Dawson had got in. Too bad.

Author:	Wabberjocky [ Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:
That Goose Gossage was penalized for so many years because he had his best seasons at a time when closers were actually used to try to win games as opposed to racking up "saves" regardless of circumstance is ridiculous. Jim Rice has one chance left, next year, before he falls off the ballot. His numbers trends indicate he'll make it next year. I personally would have voted for Gossage, Bert Blyleven, Alan Trammell and Tim Raines. Raines getting just 24 percent of the vote is ridiculous. He's the second-best leadoff man in history behind Rickey Henderson, who WILL get in on the first ballot next year. Pardon Raines all to hell for having his best years in non-mediagenic Montreal.

Author:	Vanderhoof Viking [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:05 am ]
Post subject:
Wabberjocky wrote: Raines getting just 24 percent of the vote is ridiculous. He's the second-best leadoff man in history behind Rickey Henderson, who WILL get in on the first ballot next year. Pardon Raines all to hell for having his best years in non-mediagenic Montreal. Also pardon him for playing for almost exactly the same years as the best leadoff hitter of all time. Tim suffered by comparison to Rickey, which was unfortunate.

Author:	Wabberjocky [ Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:
I don't think Lee Smith or Jack Morris will ever get close. Smith's perceived greatness is all in his saves total; his strikeouts and hits per inning ratios don't stack up well against other enshrined relievers. And Morris seems less likely than ever, as the counter-argument to his high career ERA of 3.90 â€” that he "pitched to the score" â€” has been authoritatively refuted by several statistical studies. Shawon Dunston ... sigh. Probably the worst plate discipline of his generation (203 lifetime walks against 1,000 strikeouts), and a defensive butcher at short even in his best years. It'll be fun in 10 years or so, when we argue about Ichiro.

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Author:	Wabberjocky [ Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:
Idiot argument of the year: Tracy Ringolsby, baseball writer for the Rocky Mountain News, said he voted against Tim Raines because he likened Raines to Vince Coleman: Quote: The biggest debates for me were Tim Raines, who obviously was overshadowed by Rickey Henderson, but also if you take Vince Coleman's five top years, I would say he outperformed Raines, too, and I don't see Coleman as a Hall of Famer. The interviewer quickly sets him straight: Quote: I would be remiss if I let the comparison to Coleman go by without comment. Yes, they both played left field, led off, and stole a lot of bases. But, other than that, the difference between Raines and Coleman is like night and day. Raines hit .294/.385/.425; Coleman, .264/.324/.345. That's 141 points of OPS. Over the course of their careers, Raines got on base twice as often and had twice as many total bases as Coleman. I know you referenced their top five years, but the truth is that Raines (.334/.413/.476 with an OPS+ of 151) was a much better player than Coleman (.292/.340/.400 with an OPS+ of 104) at their respective peaks, too. Ringolsby's response: Quote: Raines will have to get in line for me, behind Dawson and Murphy and Rice, while I still try and sort those three out. That makes no sense whatsoever.[/quote]

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