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 Post subject: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:41 am 
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New York Yankees star Jason Giambi told a federal grand jury that he had injected himself with human growth hormone during the 2003 baseball season and had started using steroids at least two years earlier, The Chronicle has learned. <p>Giambi has publicly denied using performance-enhancing drugs, but his Dec. 11, 2003, testimony in the BALCO steroids case contradicts those statements, according to a transcript of the grand jury proceedings reviewed by The Chronicle. <p>The onetime Oakland A's first baseman and 2000 American League Most Valuable Player testified that in 2003, when he hit 41 home runs for the Yankees, he had used several different steroids obtained from Greg Anderson, weight trainer for San Francisco Giants star Barry Bonds. <p>(-more-)


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 3:08 pm 
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Release him. Ban him. Make an example of him.<p>Too bad it had to happen to a Yankee first, but I hope Barry Bonds is running scared now.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:02 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
Release him. Ban him. Make an example of him.<hr></blockquote><p>Build a bridge out of him!


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:20 am 
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Did anybody notice that Martin Bashir's 20/20 story only really had two sources? I know TV "news" is lame, but when did it become OK to trumpet one man's opinion as fact? One man who poses hypothetical questions to himself, who uses the word "guess-timate," and who is much too pudgy to ever think about going on camera without a shirt. My B.S. detector comes out for people like that, especially people like that who get busted for running chemical laboratories for athletes. <p>Yeah, they're all cheating, but you'd think that ABC would learn a lesson from CBS about unreliable sources.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:36 am 
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Thomas Boswell in today's Washington *Post* sure buries Bonds, but good. One wonders if he will even get into the Hall now. And if he breaks Aaron's record this year, will it count, or will Selig be forced to declare the achievement null because of Bonds' testimony? Take a look at how Boswell deconstructs Bonds' numbers presteroid and poststeroid:<p>
washingtonpost.com
The Truth Lies in the Numbers<p>By Thomas Boswell<p>Saturday, December 4, 2004; Page D01<p>Now we know how much of Barry Bonds was real and how much was fake. Half was a fraud.<p>Bonds's reputation has lived by his statistics. Now, let it die by them. Forever. Before Bonds hooked up with his old friend and alleged steroid merchant Greg Anderson in '98, he had 411 homers in 6,621 at-bats, one per 16.1 at-bats. The next two years, as he acquired and adjusted to a new body, he hit 83 in 835 at-bats, one per 10 at-bats.<p>In the past four seasons, from ages 37 to 40, as he has done the deeds and committed the offenses against his sport for which he will always be remembered, Bonds hit 209 home runs in 1,642 at bats -- one every 7.9 at-bats.<p>In those four years, Bonds won four straight National League most valuable player awards, two batting titles and set the all-time single-season records for home runs, slugging percentage, on-base percentage, walks and intentional walks.<p>All those records are now a steroid lie. Without Anderson's illicit help, there is no reason whatsoever to believe Bonds could have approached, much less broken, any of the all-time marks for which he lusted so much that he has now ruined his name.<p>Throw every record that Bonds has set in the past four years into the trash can that history reserves for cheats.<p>We need no asterisks or erasures. Word of mouth, from box seats to bleachers, from generation to generation, will suffice. Bonds's 21st-century deeds have been obliterated in the eyes of anyone who knows baseball. Nothing will ever bring them back.<p>Let Bonds keep his 411 homers and three MVPs before he linked his fate to Anderson in '98, though we can't be sure what he might have used to aid his play before that. At least we now know what he's willing to use: anything that's put into his hands.<p>Bonds still claims he didn't know what he was taking. If you read the grand jury transcripts in yesterday's San Francisco Chronicle and still believe Bonds, then look outside your door. A line of bridge and swampland salesmen may stretch to the horizon. In baseball at least, sticking to the Big Lie as a winning strategy just isn't what it used to be. Pete Rose devalued the market.<p>There is no reason Bonds should ever again be considered one of the top 10 hitters who ever lived. The true elite -- including Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams and Willie Mays -- are back where they belong. If you seek current players to keep them company, start with Alex Rodriguez and his 381 home runs at age 29. At that juncture, Bonds had 222.<p>The career of the authentic Bonds was long and well defined, lasting 12 seasons until he was 35. After that point, almost all players decline in productivity. Without Anderson in his life in recent years, Bonds's production would probably have dwindled. We'd be grouping him now with other 500-homer hitters, such as Rafael Palmeiro (551) and Ken Griffey Jr. (501), who coped with age and injury all by themselves even as Bonds, the glory thief, stole their headlines.<p>The jaw-dropping irony of Bonds is not that he used steroids to improve himself or slow athletic aging, but that the particular cocktail Anderson handed him actually worked too well. While other cheaters merely prospered, he rose to the skies like a god. He became so great so suddenly and stayed so young so long that his lie became larger and easier to read than the 25 on his back. His deceit and its results were so obvious that other players such as Gary Sheffield and Jason Giambi flocked to him. Sheffield's tissue-thin defense is that he merely asked Anderson to give him what Barry gets and didn't know exactly what that was -- the "clear," the "cream" and a side order of "red beans." As for Giambi, he chose honesty over perjury before a grand jury and rolled over on himself. In time, by coming clean, Giambi may eventually wash some of the dirt off himself.<p>They call it a devil's bargain for a reason. Because when the price comes due, it's no bargain at all. There's just hell to pay. Other BALCOs in other cities may have their own lists of sinners. That's irrelevant. Society only jails the crooks it can catch.<p>Few in baseball loved Bonds, who has always resented the sport for the shabby way it treated his troubled father during his own career. Armchair psychologists can wonder whether Bonds's intense and tangled relationship with his alcoholic dad spurred him to make his late father's last years, riddled with catastrophic illnesses, into a kind of son's tribute tour at any cost.<p>That falls into the category of explanation, but not excuse. "To know all is to forgive all," it is said. Perhaps. Understanding Bonds has always been a full day's work. Still, his manner has ensured that few hearts within the game will break for him now.<p>Barry wears his demons on his sleeve and has used them as an excuse throughout his career to put his ambitions and ego, his personal pain and problems, ahead of anything else. So, he shouldn't be surprised if baseball now values its own good name above his shame and discounts much of what he has done by a factor of 25 pounds of muscle that he never earned.<p>The glory of Roger Maris's 61 home runs, which felt heavy to him in life, became a buoyant legacy to his family after his death. The disgrace of Bonds's 73 tainted home runs will become heavier with time until even fake muscles may not bear the weight. What will the future make of all Bonds's vainglorious finger-to-the-sky home plate celebrations as if heaven was on his side when it was more likely that hell had just called a holiday?<p>If Bonds plays next season, many fans will boo his 500-foot homers and cheer his intentional walks. As for a 715th home run to pass Ruth, much less a 756th to surpass Aaron, the thought of it is now almost too revolting to endure. If nothing else, maybe Bonds can find the decency to retire before he passes Aaron. Last season, he raised that possibility. Now we know why.<p>In time, Bonds will realize that both he and his sport would have been better off if his feats of the last four years had never happened. The longer he lives, the more his "unbreakable" records, protected by better drug testing, may seem like a curse. As he ages, he will wish, perhaps even pray, that he could extinguish them all. But they will never disappear from the game's history.<p>For Bonds, the number 73 will only loom larger. Even as, for the rest of us, it moves toward the horizon of memory and shrinks until it finally takes its place, remote but still distinct, next to that other sad number that never entirely fades: 1919.<p>© 2004 The Washington Post Company


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:16 am 
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Word.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 6:49 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
And if he breaks Aaron's record this year, will it count, or will Selig be forced to declare the achievement null because of Bonds' testimony?<hr></blockquote><p>He better nullify it. No asterisks here, I'm afraid. And if he doesn't, the players and fans need to make sure he never oversees anything to do with baseball again.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:14 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Niko Dugan:
<p>And if he doesn't, the players and fans need to make sure he never oversees anything to do with baseball again.<hr></blockquote><p>Wasn't there talk about that after the All Star Game debacle? I've never like Selig, and his weak stance on substance abuse these last few years is one of many reasons. He should take the fall now for his failure to do something "proactive" about this scandal.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:08 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheWalrus:
I've never like Selig, and his weak stance on substance abuse these last few years is one of many reasons. He should take the fall now for his failure to do something "proactive" about this scandal.<hr></blockquote><p>I concur, although I think the solution to the All Star Game was valid (despite what happened to my Cardinals this year). I especially despise his management of the Brewers -- tossing them willy-nilly between leagues and building a new park for a franchise that hasn't seen a winning season since the year I was born.<p>[ December 04, 2004: Message edited by: Niko Dugan ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:31 pm 
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If these little goodies had been around in Babe Ruth's era, he'd have been gobbling them up like hot dogs. Never mind the fact that Ty Cobb hit five home runs in a double-header at the end of his career "because he wanted to."<p>Sneaking around injecting steroids into your veins is one thing; getting "creamed" by your personal trainer in broad daylight is another.<p>Not sayin' Bonds is right, just sayin' there's a difference.<p>And freakin' Boswell is a rabid Red Sox fan.<p>As far as discounting Bonds' last four seasons, look at 1993: 46 HR, 123 RBI, .336 BA, .667 SLG, .458 OBP. And that's when pitchers still pitched to him. These numbers are virtually equal to his production in the past four seasons. You can look it up.<p>Don't hit me; I'm a girl.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:01 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>As far as discounting Bonds' last four seasons, look at 1993: 46 HR, 123 RBI, .336 BA, .667 SLG, .458 OBP. And that's when pitchers still pitched to him. These numbers are virtually equal to his production in the past four seasons. You can look it up.<p>Don't hit me; I'm a girl.<hr></blockquote><p>Gimme a break. 1) You're bursting my bubble and 2) Girls aren't supposed to know that stuff. What are you trying to pull on me here?<p>[ December 05, 2004: Message edited by: Matthew Grieco ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:25 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Niko Dugan:
He better nullify it. No asterisks here, I'm afraid. And if he doesn't, the players and fans need to make sure he never oversees anything to do with baseball again.<hr></blockquote>Short of a mass public flogging during the seventh-inning stretch of a Brewers game, what can players and fans do?


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:21 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
Gimme a break. 1) You're bursting my bubble and 2) Girls aren't supposed to know that stuff. What are you trying to pull on me here?<hr></blockquote><p>What can I say, Grieco -- I love the game, even though my kind never gets to play it. *grin*<p>But as long as we're talking stats, here's one that we can probably stretch across this entire thread:<p>Player: John Ashcroft
Game: Prosecuting Terrorists
Batting Average: 0 for 5,000


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:59 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SuchASlot:
Player: John Ashcroft
Game: Prosecuting Terrorists
Batting Average: 0 for 5,000
<hr></blockquote><p>I have no idea what prompted this non sequitur. But I like you.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:54 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SuchASlot:
Player: John Ashcroft
Game: Prosecuting Terrorists
Batting Average: 0 for 5,000
<hr></blockquote>Not only that, but he's a clubhouse lawyer.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:12 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SuchASlot:
If these little goodies had been around in Babe Ruth's era, he'd have been gobbling them up like hot dogs. Never mind the fact that Ty Cobb hit five home runs in a double-header at the end of his career "because he wanted to."<p>Sneaking around injecting steroids into your veins is one thing; getting "creamed" by your personal trainer in broad daylight is another.<p>Not sayin' Bonds is right, just sayin' there's a difference.<p>And freakin' Boswell is a rabid Red Sox fan.<p>As far as discounting Bonds' last four seasons, look at 1993: 46 HR, 123 RBI, .336 BA, .667 SLG, .458 OBP. And that's when pitchers still pitched to him. These numbers are virtually equal to his production in the past four seasons. You can look it up.<p>Don't hit me; I'm a girl.<hr></blockquote><p>I've never detected any bias in Boswell's writing toward any team. Did I miss a column in which he declared his allegiance?<p>I don't deny that Bonds had great or above-average seasons before 1998, but you can't deny that his physique has changed dramatically since he left Pittsburgh. He is Brobdingnagian now; he was a lithe whippet when he was with the Pirates.<p>And 46 home runs is a far cry from 73, a .667 SLG is a far cry from an .863, and a .458 OBP is a far cry from a .515.<p>[ December 05, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:03 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SuchASlot:
As far as discounting Bonds' last four seasons, look at 1993: 46 HR, 123 RBI, .336 BA, .667 SLG, .458 OBP. And that's when pitchers still pitched to him. These numbers are virtually equal to his production in the past four seasons. You can look it up.<hr></blockquote><p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>I love the game, even though my kind never gets to play it. *grin*<hr></blockquote><p>It's stuff like this that makes me weak in the knees.<p>P.S. On a quasi-related, testy note, "surprise" is a female noun in French; therefore, it should be "quelle surprise."<p>[ December 06, 2004: Message edited by: Niko Dugan ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:32 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
I've never detected any bias in Boswell's writing toward any team. Did I miss a column in which he declared his allegiance?<p>I don't deny that Bonds had great or above-average seasons before 1998, but you can't deny that his physique has changed dramatically since he left Pittsburgh. He is Brobdingnagian now; he was a lithe whippet when he was with the Pirates.<p>And 46 home runs is a far cry from 73, a .667 SLG is a far cry from an .863, and a .458 OBP is a far cry from a .515.<hr></blockquote><p>No, you probably didn't miss that Boswell column. It's just my impression, partly after seeing him interviewed a couple of times. But hey, I'm open to the possibility that he isn't a fan of anyone...<p>Yes, Bonds is a bigger man. There's probably something to it. I wasn't really sticking up for him so much as pointing to the difference between him and Giambi going on the facts we have so far. And people do thicken with age. *cough, cough*<p>Hey, he had a big year. No doubt. But great players do have big years that they never match again. If it's all the drugs, it's a sad shame. He did test negative (yeah, I know it's easy to fool the tests). And last I checked, steroids don't improve hand-eye coordination.<p>Believe me, I'm not a Bonds fanatic, and I'm as pissed about steroids in baseball as anyone (though perhaps not quite as "shocked and awed") --- the bandwagon was just getting a little too full, and I fell off.<p>[ December 06, 2004: Message edited by: SuchASlot ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:20 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SuchASlot:
the bandwagon was just getting a little too full, and I fell off.<hr></blockquote><p>I don't think baseball fans reacting with outrage to steroid use can fairly be characterized as a bandwagon. In fact, anything less than unanimous scorn is a bit alarming.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:52 pm 
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I mean the "down-with-Bonds-no-questions-asked" bandwagon.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:11 pm 
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I find Boswell's column self-righteous and shallow. What could be easier than pointing the finger at Bonds and calling him a cheat who should burn in hell? There is a deeper problem, namely that we live in a culture that glorifies sports and athletes to an absurd degree. This creates enormous pressure and enormous financial incentives to perform at ever-higher levels, just to excite the masses. We are Frankenstein; Bonds is our monster. I'm not excusing his steroid use; just trying to put it in perspective.<p>By the way, Boswell says it was obvious all along that Bonds was using steroids. Did he say so all along? <p>As I've said in related threads, Bonds had another superb season this year, some say as good or better than his 73-homer season. Are we to assume he was using steroids or benefiting from residual effects? If he was off steroids, how come he appeared as strong as ever, whereas Giambi looked like a shell of his former self?


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:30 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
As I've said in related threads, Bonds had another superb season this year, some say as good or better than his 73-homer season. Are we to assume he was using steroids or benefiting from residual effects? If he was off steroids, how come he appeared as strong as ever, whereas Giambi looked like a shell of his former self?<hr></blockquote><p>Steroids have some residual effect, but the biggest factor in the difference (whether Bonds was using or not) between how Bonds and Giambi look is that Giambi was seriously ill.
If Bonds was using, then he was doing it under extremely close supervision. Giambi wasn't.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 6:14 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
What could be easier than pointing the finger at Bonds and calling him a cheat who should burn in hell? There is a deeper problem, namely that we live in a culture that glorifies sports and athletes to an absurd degree. This creates enormous pressure and enormous financial incentives to perform at ever-higher levels, just to excite the masses. We are Frankenstein; Bonds is our monster. I'm not excusing his steroid use; just trying to put it in perspective.<hr></blockquote><p>I couldn't have said it better.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:17 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
We are Frankenstein; Bonds is our monster. I'm not excusing his steroid use; just trying to put it in perspective.<p><hr></blockquote><p>I don't think baseball fans are Frankenstein. I think the owners and the jackasses like Bud Selig are. Those are the guys who are pushing for money, money, money. Real fans just want to see great athletes playing the game. When the money-grubbers aren't satisfied, that's what creates this monster.


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 Post subject: Re: quel surprise.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 11:28 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheWalrus:
<p>I don't think baseball fans are Frankenstein. I think the owners and the jackasses like Bud Selig are. Those are the guys who are pushing for money, money, money. Real fans just want to see great athletes playing the game. When the money-grubbers aren't satisfied, that's what creates this monster.<hr></blockquote><p>
You are right that the owners and the baseball establishment deserve a big share of the blame. Bottom line: They want home runs, whether they're produced by a juiced ball or a juiced batter. So they didn't crack down. But I still think our country's obsession with sports (and seeing records broken) is a big part of the problem.


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