NL Cy Young

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:00 pm

Randy Johnson had a lower ERA and more strikeouts than Clemens. He had fewer wins only because he pitched for a lousy team. Shouldn't the Cy reward individual performance, not team performance?

Oeditpus Rex · **Posted:** Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:43 am

You're being logical. Please stop.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:15 am

You're correct, ADKBrown. And though there's somewhat more willingness to give the Cy Young to a pitcher on a bad team than to give the MVP to a player on a bad team, it only goes so far. And oi, were the Diamonbacks a bad team this year.But yes. Randy ought to have won.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:30 am

You could argue that Clemens made his team better and carried them to the playoffs, giving him the edge in intangibles that he lacks in pure stats.

wordygurdy · **Posted:** Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:14 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
You could argue that Clemens made his team better and carried them to the playoffs, giving him the edge in intangibles that he lacks in pure stats.<hr></blockquote>That's the way I would argue. Something sort of similar happened in 1987 when Nolan Ryan went 8-16 with a 2.76 ERA and 270 strikeouts in 211 innings. But the Cy Young that year went to Steve Bedrosian, who finished 5-3 with 40 saves and a 2.83 ERA. Neither Bedrock's Phillies nor Ryan's Astros made the playoffs, though, so I'm not quite sure what the reasoning among voters was that year. I just recall being surprised that Ryan didn't win given his superior stats.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Sun Nov 21, 2004 2:46 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
You could argue that Clemens made his team better and carried them to the playoffs, giving him the edge in intangibles that he lacks in pure stats.<hr></blockquote>But the Cy Young Award is not called the Most Valuable Pitcher Award. Though there is at least an argument that the MVP award should go to a player on a good team (an argument I nevertheless reject), that argument is more easily rejected in the context of the Cy Young.

ndugan1 · **Posted:** Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:25 am

You can't forget Johnson's perfect game on May 18 -- something I mentioned in the earlier thread on this topic. That goes a long way for me in the context of this award, especially in the hitter's era in baseball. When complete games are as rare as they are nowadays, even no-hitters make top story on SportsCenter (barring and player/fan brawls like the one in Detroit, of course). And it wasn't as if Johnson had an easy time of it; he was pitching against the Braves.

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:15 am

Yes. Because the voters pay too much attention to teams and not enough to players, I've come to look at these annual awards as trivia curiosities more than anything else. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but the standards that voters should apply need to be codified if the awards are to mean anything.The voters need to be told, once and for all, whether the team's success should be a factor. So long as half the voters think it should and half the voters think it shouldn't, these awards will be fairly meaningless.

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:25 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
You could argue that Clemens made his team better and carried them to the playoffs, giving him the edge in intangibles that he lacks in pure stats.<hr></blockquote>You could argue that, but I don't find "intangibles" convincing. Let's apply Occam's razor. It's more reasonable to conclude that Johnson pitched better but on a worse team.Also, Niko makes a good point about the perfect game. The guy had a stellar season, albeit with the last-place Diamondbacks.[ November 22, 2004: Message edited by: ADKbrown ]

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Mon Nov 22, 2004 12:59 pm

Yes, Niko makes an excellent point about the perfect game.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:51 pm

Every season I care less about individual awards. I don't think perfect games should count for much toward an award given for a season's work. Bah, humbug.

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:56 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Wayne Countryman:
I don't think perfect games should count for much toward an award given for a season's work. <hr></blockquote>It's just icing on the cake.

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