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 Post subject: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:29 pm 
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Ichiro is an obvious contender, batting .374. He's second in stolen bases and in on-base percentage, but he's no slugger.<p>Manny Ramirez leads league in HRs and is batting over .300. Vladimer Guerrero has 33 HRs and is batting .329.<p>After a slow start, A-Rod has put up good stats: .294, 35 HRs, 27 SBs. A strong finish would make him a contender. (Sheffield, who seems to be Yankees fans' favorite for MVP, has similar numbers without the SBs.)<p>Any others?


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:13 am 
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There was an article in yesterday's *Daily News* by John Harper about the AL MVP race, describing the candidates (Ramirez, his teammate David Ortiz, Guerrero and Sheffield). <p>He says that West Coast writers note that Guerrero hasn't had a big second half and doesn't seem to get many big hits that win games, so that probably cancels him out.<p>Ortiz and Ramirez probably cancel each other out too, though both are raking.<p>I'm no fan of Sheffield's (I think he's a petulant, self-absorbed malcontent who for some reason has subsumed those personality traits so far this year and played in what is apparently tremendous pain), but even I have to concede he has been the most valuable player on the Yankees. Without him, the Yankees would have had a significantly weaker offense this year, as absurd as that statement sounds on its merits. He has had clutch hit after clutch hit and has excelled on defense (5 errors this year in 266 total chances).<p>Rodriguez has had a great year for most third basemen offensively and defensively (as you said, he has 27 stolen bases and only 4 caught stealings to go with only 13 errors), but he hasn't had a great year by his standards. If writers around the league confer with New York writers, the former group will find that Rodriguez hasn't had nearly as many clutch hits as Sheffield and weigh that accordingly.<p>I have a hunch, though, that Ramirez might get the award at least partly because of his outstanding seasons with Cleveland in the past in which he wasn't recognized--to go with the amazing numbers he has put up this year.<p>I would say if it isn't Ramirez, it will be Sheffield who wins.<p>Peter Gammons has made the case for Mariano Rivera as MVP. Rivera does have 50 saves and has been as automatic as ever, but it's pretty rare for a pitcher to get the MVP.<p>[ September 24, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:12 am 
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I'm surprised he doesn't even mention Ichiro. I guess you can't be an MVP unless you hit a lot of home runs. He may be right about Sheffield's clutch hitting. I haven't watched the games. But I am skeptical of claims that so-and-so always comes through in the clutch. There have been attempts to come up with a stat that measures clutch hitting objectively. I don't know if anyone has succeeded.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 3:40 pm 
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Ichiro isn't in contention because, as I grumbled in another thread, too many writers refuse to vote for players on bad teams. And oi, is Seattle ever a bad team.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:27 am 
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As of this morning, Suzuki needs 9 hits in his last 9 games to break George Sisler's single-season hit record of 257 in 1920.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:04 pm 
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Not to throw astericks around, but keep in mind that "Gorgeous George" had those 257 hits during the 154-game regular season in 1920.<p>And I'm not bitter at all about having another record set by a St. Louis player broken.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:58 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Niko Dugan:
Not to throw astericks around, but keep in mind that "Gorgeous George" had those 257 hits during the 154-game regular season in 1920.<p><hr></blockquote><p>What really matters is ABs, not games. Of course, Ichiro has had more of those, too.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:52 pm 
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Location: Albany, NY
I say Manny, but I'm of course biased.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:39 am 
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What about Vladi's push in the past several days? He's been en fuego, hitting something like .438 with five or six home runs since Sunday as the Angels make a charge for the postseason.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:22 pm 
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Suzuki just tied Sisler's mark of 257 in the team's 160th game of the season. <p>(He also had the luxury of 60 more at-bats.)


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:36 pm 
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That doesn't cheapen Suzuki's record to me, though. Nobody else in the last half century has even come close to Sisler, so I take Ichiro's record as legit.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:33 am 
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He broke the record later in the game, btw.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:46 am 
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Sisler had an amazing year in 1920:<p>G: 154 AB: 631 R: 137 H: 257 2B: 49 3B:18 HR:19 RBI: 122 SB: 42 BA: .407 OBP: .449 SLG: .632<p>Ichiro's stats so far:<p>G: 159 AB: 695 R: 101 H: 259 2B: 24 3B: 5 HR: 8 RBI: 60 SB: 36 BA: .373 OBP: .415 SLG:.456 <p>Sisler had 86 extra-base hits!! Ichiro has 37 to date. And Sisler drove in twice as many runs in 60 fewer at-bats, though that's probably owing in large part to Ichiro's position as leadoff hitter (I don't know where Sisler hit in the lineup). <p>Sisler also hit over .400, .420 to be precise, in 1922. One of the great things about Ichiro's pursuit of Sisler has been the renewed interest in Sisler's career. A columnist I read somewhere recently said that Sisler is getting more publicity and appreciation now than he did while he was alive.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 3:37 pm 
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Yes, Sisler was clearly a better player than Ichiro ever has been or will be. If not for Babe Ruth, Sisler would have led the American League in most offensive categories in 1920, the year he set the record. Sisler had a good deal of power that Ichiro lacks.<p>Ichiro deserves a great deal of credit for what he did this year, but he remains a one or two-trick pony, not a complete player like Sisler.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 4:12 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
Ichiro deserves a great deal of credit for what he did this year, but he remains a one or two-trick pony, not a complete player like Sisler.<hr></blockquote><p>Ichiro is one of the best all-around players today. He has good range and an excellent arm in rightfield. He's a good base stealer. He seldom swings for more than a single, though, and doesn't get many walks.<p>Sisler began his career as a pitcher who also played first base. He became a full-time first baseman--one of the best fielders ever-- because his team needed him to concentrate on hitting. <p>Sisler ran well enough to lead the league in steals. Had enough power to bat third. Didn't walk much, though. Clearly one of the best players of his time, overshadowed by Babe Ruth but few others.<p>[ October 02, 2004: Message edited by: Wayne Countryman ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 10:27 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:

Ichiro deserves a great deal of credit for what he did this year, but he remains a one or two-trick pony, not a complete player like Sisler.
<hr></blockquote><p> Ichiro plays incredible defense. I think three Gold Gloves in his first three years backs that up. He can steal gobs of bases. He swiped 56 his first season in the league. And despite his penchant for hitting singles, he can hit for power. I've seen him in batting practice (Yes, I know it's batting practice) and he routinely puts balls in the upper deck. He's a singles hitter primarily because that is what he sees as his role. I'm not saying he would contend for the HR title any year, but it's not beyond the reach of imagination for him to hit 30 HR in a year.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:42 pm 
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He's a singles hitter because he doesn't have the power to hit home runs on a regular basis.<p>Nobody would choose to be a singles hitter if he had the ability to be a home run hitter. A romantic notion, but it doesn't happen.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:56 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
He's a singles hitter because he doesn't have the power to hit home runs on a regular basis.<p>Nobody would choose to be a singles hitter if he had the ability to be a home run hitter. A romantic notion, but it doesn't happen.<hr></blockquote><p>I'm sure you're right, Matt, but there may be one exception: Ty Cobb. I recall reading that he objected to the shift in baseball from a scrappy singles game to one dominated by home runs. He probably could have hit more homers if he tried. In fact, he went from 2 homers in 1920 to 12 in 1921, perhaps to prove this point. Although 12 does not seem like a lot to us, only eight players in the A.L. hit more that year (which makes Ruth's 59 even more astounding; second best was 24).


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:27 am 
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Yes, but remember, ADK, that was 84 years ago, and Ty Cobb was insane.<p>Sure, you can maintain a higher average and cut down on strikeouts and create more potential scoring opportunities by hitting singles. But in general, why settle for one base when you can have all four with one swing?


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:51 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Yes, but remember, ADK, that was 84 years ago, and Ty Cobb was insane.<p>Sure, you can maintain a higher average and cut down on strikeouts and create more potential scoring opportunities by hitting singles. But in general, why settle for one base when you can have all four with one swing?<hr></blockquote><p>Because if you hit a tater, you have no opportunity to spike anyone.


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 Post subject: Re: AL MVP?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:59 pm 
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Players need to find a balance between what they do best and what their teams need from them. A team needs a variety of them to win.<p>Ichiro might be a lesser player if he swung for the fences.<p>Babe Ruth would have been a lesser player if he cut down his swing, because he hit for a high average anyway and he was the best of his time (if not ever) when going for power.<p>If the Mariners used Ichiro to bat fourth, he'd need to swing harder. But any team is bound to have a better cleanup hitter than Ichiro would make.<p>Some leadoff hitters would be better off imitating Ichiro, getting more hits and walks instead of lots of strikeouts and pop flies.<p>Rare are players who can maintain a high on-base average, high RBI count and high slugging percentage. That's what's so amazing about Barry Bonds' numbers in recent seasons. <p>Of course, a batter's value to a team goes beyond numbers. Think of No. 2 hitters who take pitches to let leadoff hitters steal. Think of hitters who go to extremes to make contact to advance a runner, in essence sacrificing without getting statistical credit for it.


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