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 Post subject: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:15 pm 
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A friend asked me if I could reel off a Top 10 on this subject. After I stopped laughing, I came up with these names. Anyone care to add or subtract people?<p>1) Ty Cobb
2) Barry Bonds
3) Rogers Hornsby
4) Albert Belle
5) Eddie Murray (though teammates said he was an excellent teammate)
6) Bobby Bonilla
7) Tony Phillips
8) Tie: Bret Saberhagen and Vince Coleman (Might seem like I'm piling on the Mets here, but anyone who throws firecrackers at fans, as Coleman did, or bleach at reporters, as Saberhagen did, deserves to be on this list)
9) Dave Kingman
10) Some say Kevin Brown belongs on any comprehensive list of baseball a--holes.<p>Honorable mention: Jim Rice (though, as with Murray, from what I have read teammates thought he was a great guy)<p>[ March 30, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:37 pm 
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Carl Everett. If anybody other than his own mother likes him, I've yet to hear about it.<p>I realize you're referring to off-field behavior, of which there is plenty bad on Everett's part, but personally I'll never forgive him for ruining Mike Mussina's perfect-game bid against Boston on Sept. 9, 2001, with two outs in the ninth and an 0-2 count. Even the Red Sox fans I know took no joy in the perfecto being broken: "If it had been any other Red Sox who broke it up," quoth one.<p>[ March 30, 2004: Message edited by: Matthew Grieco ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:43 pm 
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Of course. How could I have forgotten Everett? Dan Shaughnessy took to calling him "Jurassic Carl" while he was with the Red Sox because he once said he didn't believe dinosaurs had existed.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:30 pm 
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John Rocker seems an obvious choice, unless you're considering only on-field behavior.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:07 pm 
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I wonder how many of those in your top ten (half?) are merely men who refused to play the game imposed by the mainstream media.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 12:08 am 
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Well, I think it's fair to say that they were all surly, immature churls who often went out of their way to be verbally or physically abusive (or both) to those around them--be those others players, fans, media members or officials.<p>[ March 31, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 1:46 am 
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Mickey Rivers and Graig Nettles for their dastardly attack on the Spaceman.<p>Wow, baseball was still a great game in 1976. I loved it then. I stopped going to games when the traditional organ music was replaced by pop-metal noise. Gross commercialism and rampant steroid use have ruined Major League Baseball. The only baseball games I watch on TV now are the ESPN classics. Most of the records set in recent years shouldn't count. I don't even bother to hate the Yankees anymore.<p>But I digress.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 11:37 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SeaRaven:
Mickey Rivers and Graig Nettles for their dastardly attack on the Spaceman.
<hr></blockquote><p>Not that I'm the arbiter of this list, but I don't think Rivers and Nettles belong, even though I'm a Yankee fan. This was one fight on a baseball field, not a pattern of behavior over several years. <p>Rivers had a reputation for being a lovable goofball whose biggest vice was a love for the racetrack. Nettles was known for being a big practical joker.<p>Bill Lee, by many accounts, including that of my Red Sox-bleeding best friend who's a sports editor at a paper in Massachusetts, was and remains a huge a--hole. I just didn't put him on the Top 10 list because I think he was more a local than a national figure.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:58 pm 
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Carl Mays, the submarine pitcher who killed Ray Chapman with an inside pitch in 1920. He apparently was a nasty fellow before and after the fatal pitch. He has Hall of Fame stats but never got in.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:18 pm 
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Is Pete Rose banned from this discussion, too? Seems like a worthy candidate to me. <p>And, let's not forget Billy Martin. <p>Oh, and if owners are fair game -- George Steinbrenner, of course, and Bud "The Antichrist" Selig.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2004 1:41 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by EMorse:
John Rocker seems an obvious choice, unless you're considering only on-field behavior.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I can't believe I didn't mention him in the same breath with Everett. The two of them were together briefly with Texas, and I remember thinking they deserved each other in the clubhouse.<p>Not too long after the famous Rocker SI article, I went to a Braves game and I was stunned at the vocal fan support Rocker received when he entered the game. It seems that bigotry can still make you popular in Georgia. Even after Rocker walked in the go-ahead run, the fans booed Bobby Cox for pulling him.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:09 am 
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I'll shock everyone by weighing in on a sports topic. <p>I covered the Phillies a few times back in the Stone Age, simply because I was dumb enough to be at my desk when the beat writer called in sick. <p> I offer a defense of one player and the nomination of another player.<p>I don't believe for a second that Rose should ever be in the Hall of Fame. I agree with Bill James, who wrote in the Historical Abstract (terrific book) that we should hold our noses and let Rose in after every honest player who ever played the game is admitted.<p>However, in my limited dealings with Rose he was never an asshole. I once saw him spend a long, long time chatting with a mentally slow waiter who asked him for an autograph after a banquet. The waiter gave him a napkin to sign, but Rose took out a business card (perhaps his bookie's) and signed it instead. I guess this proves you can never judge a celebrity by a brief brush with him, because anyone who saw Rose patiently dealing with that guy would think him a saint.<p>Nomination: Larry Bowa. He was a player back then and was a huge asshole, smug, nasty, uncooperative, win or lose. I can't believe he is a manager. He has all the people skills of a fresh buffalo chip.<p>Oh, and one more thing: ADKBrown is spot-on nominating Carl Mays. Good call. In 1920, this guy drilled a submarine fast ball into the side of a guy's head so hard that one of the infielders, hearing the crack, fielded the ball thinking it was hit by the bat. And this was before helmets. Mays never even stepped off the mound to see if Chapman was OK, never apologized, never said boo about the whole thing, and from all accounts was never remorseful, sorry or acted as if he gave a shit at all about it.<p>Quite a fellow.<p> I love baseball history. It's the "modern game" I can't stand, though since the Phils built a new park I am considered being a fan this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 11:16 am 
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After posting the previous message, I remembered that James' comment was about Joe Jackson, not Rose. So sue me.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:29 pm 
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James also said of Shoeless Joe that the people who want to admit him to the Hall are baseball's answer to the women who show up at murder trials hoping to marry the cute murderer.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 3:10 pm 
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Stupidity is not a defense in a murder trial, a robbery trial or a hearing in traffic court. Joe Jackson, by all accounts, was stupid. But that does not excuse the fact that he took $5,000 to throw the '19 series, despite his claim of double-crossing Burns and Attell.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:40 pm 
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And James ALSO pointed out that if Jackson took the money and then played well anyway, that only makes him doubly faithless.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:22 am 
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Steven Norman Carlton<p>I'm sorry, you can only pitch to Tim McCarver? And then you treat the media like so much tobacco-laced backwash? And I once thought left-handers in baseball were so cool.<p>Image<p>BIG a*hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:23 am 
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Now we're talking. Galactic a-hole.<p>Galactic.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:53 pm 
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For a few more choice candidates, you might like to check out ESPN.com's list of "least likable ballplayers."<p>ESPN.com's Top Ten List


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:55 pm 
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Sorry, let's try that again without HTML formatting:
http://sports.espn.go.com/page2/s/leastliked/readers/010815.html


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:26 pm 
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Coincidently, Tim McCarver is also an asshole. My father was a trainer at the health club McCarver belonged to in his hometown of Memphis during the height of his career. He treated everyone that worked there like a personal servant. He was a confident shit head that no one liked.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 10:48 am 
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What about Mike Schmidt? I worked with a guy who covered the Phillies once. I think he said Schmidt was a big a-hole. <p>BTW, should it be A-hole?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 11:43 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
What about Mike Schmidt? I worked with a guy who covered the Phillies once. I think he said Schmidt was a big a-hole. <p>BTW, should it be A-hole?<hr></blockquote><p>Rose, Bowa, Carlton, McCarver, Schmidt -- is anyone from the 1980 Phillies not an a-hole? Leo Durocher was right.<p>(Oh, I'm taking Tug McGraw off the table. As a transplanted Mets fan, it's the only common ground I have with fans in Philly.)


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 12:26 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JPSheehan:
For a few more choice candidates, you might like to check out ESPN.com's list of "least likable ballplayers."<p>ESPN.com's Top Ten List<hr></blockquote>Gheezus, how could I forget Rickey "I'm going to break Ty Cobb's all-time stolen-base record, so give me a Maserati" Henderson?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:15 am 
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My friend put Hendu on the list, but I don't know. I have no great love for the man, but he always struck me more as a clueless egomaniac than a malevolent jerk. Rickey always lived in his own little world, but he never went out of his way to make sure others disliked being around him. For all his many eccentricities between the lines, he never wound up in the press for transgressions off the field. And as a person who often sounded subliterate, he often came up with unintentionally humorous quotes along the lines of "Don't need no press now, man."<p>Rickey was a lot like Manny Ramirez is today (though Manny never speaks to the press, so we don't know if he's an egomaniac). I don't think Manny belongs on the list. Does anyone else? Anyone else have an opinion on Rickey?


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:18 am 
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I nominate Pedro Martinez: a first-class whiner and a craven headhunter.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:24 am 
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Yeah, I think Pedro belongs. The more I see of his tired diva crap, the less I like. And his quote about Karim Garcia delivered this spring training--paraphrasing, but not much, "Who is he to bat against the likes of me?"--indicates a serious attitude problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 10:53 am 
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The Hendu nickname belonged to Dave Henderson, not Rickey. Dave didn't have Rickey's abilities, but he always impressed me as a likeable guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 12:13 pm 
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You know, Sea, I knew that while I was typing that post, but I figured it wouldn't matter if I called Rickey "Hendu." Sorry!<p>You're right, he wasn't the player Rickey was, but he does have one unforgettable home run to look back on. Too bad Donnie Moore couldn't forget it, though I think I saw a piece recently that said the notion that Henderson's home run was the only factor that caused Moore to sink into a depression and commit suicide was a fallacy--that Moore was troubled long before Henderson stepped into the box. The homer exacerbated the demons but wasn't their only cause.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 1:50 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tim Lawson:
I nominate Pedro Martinez: a first-class whiner and a craven headhunter.<hr></blockquote>There's head-hunting and there's the "purpose pitch." The latter is part of the game, same as the take-out slide. You don't go out of your way to hurt somebody, but you don't just surrender the inside corner or the baseline, either.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:18 pm 
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Nobody's mentioned my fave: A-Rod.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:27 am 
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Yes, now that he is a Yankee, A-Rod must be considered at least "A---hole-inclined."


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:44 pm 
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Ted Williams (spitter), Albert Belle (ball thrower), Ricky Henderson (full of self), Ty Cobb (racist), Barry Bonds (full of self, liar), John Rocker (redneck), Willie Wilson (all of above), Joe Dimaggio (conceited), Vida Blue (ahole), Pedro Martiniez (elderly abuse).


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:34 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by night train:
Ty Cobb (racist)
(snip)
Joe Dimaggio (conceited)
(snip)
Pedro Martiniez (elderly abuse).
<hr></blockquote>If you give credence to Al Stump's account ("Cobb" is a marvelous work, btw), Tyrus was likely psychotic, not merely a racist.<p>I'm given to understand that DiMaggio -- like Maris a small-town kid thrust into the claws of the NYC sports press -- merely wanted to be left the hell alone.<p>Connecting Martinez to elder abuse doesn't even warrant discussion.<p>[ April 13, 2004: Message edited by: Oeditpus Rex ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:36 pm 
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I wonder: Are major league baseball managers any better? Spitfire hellion Larry Bowa comes quickly to mind... I hear Jack McKeon is quite the S.O.B. but puts on the personna of the cuddly sweet grandpa-type when "necessary." Leo Durocher probably made the otherwise unflappable Ernie Banks want to flip him off constantly. And there were a**es filling out lineup cards long before "Mr. Nice Guys Finish Last."


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:50 pm 
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I actually appreciate what Pedro did during last year's ALCS. People always tell me I'm too nice to be a Yankees fan. After last October, any sense of sympathy I ever had for the Red Sox is obliterated, and there's a lot less guilt in my life.


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:00 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
After last October, any sense of sympathy I ever had for the Red Sox is obliterated, and there's a lot less guilt in my life.<hr></blockquote><p>Seconded.<p>[ April 13, 2004: Message edited by: Tim Lawson ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Top 10 Baseball A--holes
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 1:58 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
Carl Mays. I think murder is worse than throwing games.<hr></blockquote><p>OK, let's get the record straight: Carl Mays did not "murder" Ray Chapman. If any copy editor here had read this while on the job, he or she would have changed it. At least I hope so.<p>Mays threw a pitch that hit on the head -- a helmetless head -- a guy who was crowding the plate, and didn't get out of the way. Accusing Mays of deliberately trying to hit Chapman, never mind kill him, is hyperbole of the worst kind.<p>As for why Mays isn't in the Hall, well, maybe his record doesn't warrant it. Simple as that.<p>[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: Gary Kirchherr ]</p>


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