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 Post subject: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:50 pm 
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Rose Says It Was 'Wrong' and 'Stupid' to Bet on Baseball <p>*I may be behind in the news, but isn't the news that he admitted, for the first time, that he did bet on baseball? Is that fact obscured in a hed like this?<p>My real reason for posting is to point out that Rose broke the hits record only because he continued to play long after he should have retired. He was one of the least-productive first basemen in the majors for a number of years at the end of his career. If Ty Cobb tacked on a bunch of shitty seasons at the end of his career, he'd still be the hits leader.*<p>[ January 06, 2004: Message edited by: blanp ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:42 pm 
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It is "wrong" and "stupid."


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:15 pm 
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AP also keeps calling Pete a "slugger."


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:26 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
AP also keeps calling Pete a "slugger."<hr></blockquote><p>That's pretty egregious. Are there no baseball-literate folks at AP, for crying out loud?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:45 pm 
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Where did you find this head? Smells like fear of saying in the morning paper what TV and the Internet said in the evening.<p>Which doesn't make it right. But we've been through this recently.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:56 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
My real reason for posting is to point out that Rose broke the hits record only because he continued to play long after he should have retired. He was one of the least-productive first basemen in the majors for a number of years at the end of his career.<hr></blockquote><p>Well, now, I'll take exception to that. Rose's only really bad season was his last one, when he already had the hits record. The four seasons before that weren't terrific, but he was still a good enough hitter and fielder to be an everyday position player by any objective standard.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>If Ty Cobb tacked on a bunch of shitty seasons at the end of his career, he'd still be the hits leader.<hr></blockquote><p>And if Babe Ruth had started his career as an outfielder instead of as a pitcher, he'd still be the home run leader. And if Lou Gehrig hadn't gotten his namesake disease, he'd still be the consecutive-games leader. Yet every baseball fan with half a brain knows Cobb was greater than Rose, Ruth was greater than Aaron, and Gehrig was greater than Ripkin. Let's not make more of all-time-total records than they deserve.<p>Sorry for the off-topic tangent, but by golly, this issue is more important than any other on the board right now.<p>[ January 05, 2004: Message edited by: Gary Kirchherr ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:07 am 
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Please proceed to www.testybaseballfans.org


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:00 am 
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I can't separate copy editing and baseball. I'd never get through a night without bantering across the newsroom with my buddy on the sports desk.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:07 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
I can't separate copy editing and baseball. I'd never get through a night without bantering across the newsroom with my buddy on the sports desk.<hr></blockquote><p>To the endless merriment of your co-workers, I'm sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:42 pm 
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Gary, I disagree. Over his last seven seasons, he batted .273 in 3,232 at-bats and hit a total of six home runs. I don't have my reference books handy, but I believe he was playing first base most of those years. I doubt that there were many everyday first basemen who were so unproductive.<p>I heartily agree that the hits records does not mean that Rose was as good as Cobb. Rose's .303 lifetime average is very good; it would be great only if he were the slugger that AP thinks he was.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 2:30 pm 
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I've noticed over the years that as morale goes down, sports talk goes up. Was it a difficult holiday season?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:50 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
I heartily agree that the hits records does not mean that Rose was as good as Cobb. Rose's .303 lifetime average is very good; it would be great only if he were the slugger that AP thinks he was.<hr></blockquote>.303 pales in comparison to .367 -- a stat that simply boggles my mind. Who even gets close to .367 anymore, much less averages that over 24 seasons? Incredible. Then factor in that Cobb hit for 16 years against pitchers who were allowed to do anything to the ball except break the skin (and they did that too).<p>To those who haven't seen "Cobb" or read Al Stump's book of the same title (the unauthorized biography), I highly recommend both.<p>On another note, I suppose it's pointless to bring up the fact that there's some pretty solid (written) evidence that Cobb and Dutch Leonard conspired to throw a game or two.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 3:53 pm 
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By the way -- this is probably the ultimate baseball reference site:<p>Baseball-Reference.com.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:32 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
I've noticed over the years that as morale goes down, sports talk goes up. Was it a difficult holiday season?<hr></blockquote><p>Well, I did tear a cartilage in my knee just before Christmas. And I didn't get that pony. Again.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:35 pm 
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The odd thing is, the more watered-down the Hall gets, the less deserving Rose seems. Crunch the numbers all you want, but the all-time hits leader would normally be an automatic choice for the Hall. Either allow Rose AND the others, like Shoeless Joe, back in (as Fay Vincent suggested), or drop it and let them all fade away, including Rose, who tho he vows he never bet against his team, in effect did just that on the days he didn't bet on them to win.<p>Where statistics come in handy are in the arguments for and against the borderline players. Near-journeymen like Dave Winfield who hang around 22 years and scratch out 3,000 hits or head-scratchers like Gary Carter. One of these days, someone with 500 homers (Eddie Murray would have been my choice) will be denied entry.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:13 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Near-journeymen like Dave Winfield who hang around 22 years and scratch out 3,000 hits ...<hr></blockquote><p>What have you been smoking? Dave Winfield was no "near-journeyman" and he didn't "scratch out" 3,000 hits. He was among the best players in the game for quite a long time. He was great defensively (seven Gold Gloves), with the bat (not just the 3,000-plus hits, but also more than 500 doubles and 400 homers) and he could run (223 stolen bases). Winfield was a freak of nature; I can't think of another player in the history of the game who was as big as Winfield yet as athletic. He was drafted by the NBA, the NFL and MLB.<p>I always thought there was something sinister hiding behind that goody-two-shoes image (not unlike Tony Gwynn), but he damn sure belongs in the Hall of Fame.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:47 pm 
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I have heard the longevity argument applied to Murray but not to Winfield. Winfield was a dominant force at the plate and in the field for several years, usually one of the key elements considered for induction.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:20 pm 
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Yes, Winfield was a very good player for *several* years. For most of his career, he was not dominant. He stole most of his bases 20-25 per year during his first 7 seasons. He hit 30 HRs 3 times in his career. He hit .300 4 times. Never put together a season with 200 hits. I'll give him 8 100-RBI seasons. He was a good all-around player who hung around long enough, bouncing among 5 teams, to compile impressive career stats. He was very tall, too, if I recall.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:02 pm 
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I won't be satisfied until John Kruk is inducted into the Hall of Fame.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 8:08 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
By the way -- this is probably the ultimate baseball reference site:<p>Baseball-Reference.com.<hr></blockquote>
Thank you kindly, have added to files. I take it silence is approval of the veracity of this opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:24 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
I won't be satisfied until John Kruk is inducted into the Hall of Fame.<hr></blockquote><p>Now you're being deliberately provocative!<p>My offbeat pick is Bruce Sutter. He's an oddball whose numbers aren't that spectacular, but I would vote him in simply because he (and Mike Roarke, his guru) changed the game with the pitch they invented. And Sutter was virtually unhittable for about 5 years. Then again, Lee Smith, the all-time saves leader falls into that longevity category. ...


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:38 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Paul Wiggins:

I take it silence is approval of the veracity of this opinion.
<hr></blockquote><p>Please don't mistake boredom for approval, my friend.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2004 11:40 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
<p>Well, I did tear a cartilage in my knee just before Christmas. And I didn't get that pony. Again.<hr></blockquote><p>-- Thanks, ADK. You gave me the best laugh of the day.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:48 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Paul Wiggins:
Thank you kindly, have added to files. I take it silence is approval of the veracity of this opinion.<hr></blockquote>I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should've been when I posted that -- sorta preoccupied with resume-tweaking. I should've said it's the ultimate baseball statistics reference site. Virtually nothing there in the way of history, trivia, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:54 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
<p>To the endless merriment of your co-workers, I'm sure.<hr></blockquote><p>
The only colleague who ever complained was one whose opinions and feelings I didn't care about.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:57 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
I wasn't thinking as clearly as I should've been when I posted that -- sorta preoccupied with resume-tweaking. I should've said it's the ultimate baseball statistics reference site. Virtually nothing there in the way of history, trivia, etc.<hr></blockquote><p>
For the latter, see www.Baseball-Almanac.com


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:35 am 
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I say Hack Wilson had the greatest shirt-collar-to-shoe-size ratio of all time (18 to 6).<p>... However, Kruk might be a close second. ... This calls for deeper research. ... I'll get my best people on it right away.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:57 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
<p>
The only colleague who ever complained was one whose opinions and feelings I didn't care about.
<hr></blockquote><p>How lucky you were to have the luxury of picking and choosing. Did you create the caste system or was it established by the time you got there?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:01 pm 
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So Sutter was unhittable for five years, and he deserves Hall recognition, but Winfield was dominant for 11 years from 1977 to 1988 and deserves nada? Hmm. I'm not disagreeing with the argument for Sutter's inclusion, given that he did as you say invent the use of the splitter. But I sure wonder about the soundness of your logic.<p>Even if you argue that homers, RBI and batting average are not the best indicators of a player's overall value, you have to admit Winfield was a model of consistency at a very high level that not many other players in his era attained. Today his numbers look like a middle infielder's, but for his time he was a dominant offensive player at his position. You have to remember that it used to be ASTOUNDING for a player to hit 30 home runs or close to it in a season. Hitting 20 in a season was great. Hitting 40 or 50 in a season wasn't even included in the realm of the likely. And this isn't even taking into account all his Gold Gloves and the fact that while he was with the Yankees, I think a case could be made that his arm and Jesse Barfield's (who was then with the Blue Jays) were the only two feared weapons in right field in the entire league.<p>Winfield belongs.<p>1977 SDP G: 157 AB: 615 H: 169 HR: 25 RBI: 92 AVG: .275
1978 SDP G: 158 AB: 587 H: 181 HR: 24 RBI: 97 AVG.: .308 .
1979 SDP G: 159 AB: 597 H: 184 HR: 34 RBI: 118 AVG.: .308
1980 SDP G: 162 AB: 558 H: 154 HR: 20 RBI: 87 AVG.:.276
1981 NYY (strike year) G: 105 AB: 388 H: 114 HR: 13 RBI: 68 AVG.: .294
1982 NYY G: 140 AB: 539 H: 151 HR: 37 RBI: 106 AVG.: .280
1983 NYY G: 152 AB: 598 H: 169 HR: 32 RBI: 116 AVG.: .283
1984 NYY G: 141 AB: 567 H: 193 HR: 19 RBI: 100 AVG.: .340
1985 NYY G: 155 AB: 633 H: 174 HR: 26 RBI: 114 AVG.: .275
1986 NYY G: 154 AB: 565 H: 148 HR: 24 RBI: 104 AVG.: .262
1987 NYY G: 156 AB: 575 H: 158 HR: 27 RBI: 97 AVG.: .275
1988 NYY G: 149 AB: 559 H: 180 HR: 25 RBI: 107 AVG.: .322<p>[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:30 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
So Sutter was unhittable for five years, and he deserves Hall recognition ... ?<hr></blockquote>Pretty much the same story as Koufax, and I don't think many would question his place in the Hall.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:55 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
Winfield was a model of consistency at a very high level that not many other players in his era attained. Today his numbers look like a middle infielder's, but for his time he was a dominant offensive player at his position. You have to remember that it used to be ASTOUNDING for a player to hit 30 home runs or close to it in a season. <hr></blockquote><p>I think you are dramatically overstating the difference in eras. I'm sorry, but averaging 26 home runs during his prime doesn't come close to *astounding*. This wasn't the Home Run Baker dead-ball era. George Foster and Dave Kingman had no problem hitting 40 and 50 home runs. Winfield was a very consistent, all-around ballplayer, but his numbers at the plate are impressive only as a 22-season accumulation, and in the field, he was no Clemente. Winfield compares better to consistent (clutch) hitter/gold glover/cocaine user Keith Hernandez, who by the way won an MVP award and just got dropped from Hall consideration for lack of votes.<p>And, re: Sutter. My logic does hold. Pitchers are different. Thanks to Oeditpus for the Koufax analogy.<p>[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]<p>[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:38 pm 
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This is what's great about baseball: the fact that you can have debates like this endlessly! And in the cold clutches of winter, yet!<p>Koufax had a much more memorable career than did Sutter. I don't think there's any argument about that. If you're looking for a great baseball read, by the way, Jane Leavy's *Koufax* should be on your list. It's compact and brilliant, like Koufax's career.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 3:46 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
I won't be satisfied until John Kruk is inducted into the Hall of Fame.<hr></blockquote><p>My favorite Kruk moment is his at-bat in the All-Star Game against Randy Johnson. Kruk wanted no part of Johnson and genuinely looked terrified of the first pitch he faced. (I think it was after that that he just gave up all pretense of trying to get a hit and started laughing in the batter's box. He might have even stepped into the opposite batter's box for a pitch or two just for kicks--I can't recall all the details now.)<p>His testicular cancer must be in remission, eh? I haven't read anything about him since he retired.<p>[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:40 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
<p>How lucky you were to have the luxury of picking and choosing. Did you create the caste system or was it established by the time you got there?<hr></blockquote><p>
It was just her. There's no point in rehashing it, since she and I no longer work together, but suffice to say that she hated me for reasons beyond my control and I ultimately decided to return the favor.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:40 pm 
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Just curious, JJ: Do you think Willie "Pops" Stargell belongs in the Hall?<p>Here are Stargell's career numbers:<p>21 seasons
2,232 hits
475 home runs
1,540 RBI
17 SB
.282 average
1 regular-season MVP, 2 postseason MVPs<p>Winfield's career numbers:<p>22 seasons
3,110 hits
465 home runs
1,833 RBI
223 SB
.283 average
No regular-season or postseason MVPs<p>I don't have any problem with Stargell's being in the Hall. He was on more good teams than Winfield was, which wasn't Winfield's fault but might have led to greater recognition for Stargell than for Winfield.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:43 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
<p>I think you are dramatically overstating the difference in eras. I'm sorry, but averaging 26 home runs during his prime doesn't come close to *astounding*. This wasn't the Home Run Baker dead-ball era. George Foster and Dave Kingman had no problem hitting 40 and 50 home runs. Winfield was a very consistent, all-around ballplayer, but his numbers at the plate are impressive only as a 22-season accumulation, and in the field, he was no Clemente. Winfield compares better to consistent (clutch) hitter/gold glover/cocaine user Keith Hernandez, who by the way won an MVP award and just got dropped from Hall consideration for lack of votes.<p>And, re: Sutter. My logic does hold. Pitchers are different. Thanks to Oeditpus for the Koufax analogy.<p>[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]<p>[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]<hr></blockquote><p>In the last nine seasons, the league leader in home runs has averaged about 58 homers. In Winfield's 11-year prime, the league leader averaged about 47. <p>Of course, home runs are hardly the sole reason for Winfield's enshrinement, but your comparison to Keith Hernandez is ridiculous. Hernandez never once hit as many as 20 homers in his 17 seasons. He was Winfield without the power. <p>Also, I didn't claim Winfield was great because he was tall. I claimed he was perhaps the most athletic big man ever to play the game.<p>As for Sutter, arguments for and against folks like him and Koufax are largely subjective. They are definitely tougher to judge. I have a personal bias against Sutter since I am a Braves fan. But I don't believe Sutter deserves extra credit for innovation. He was one of the first to use it, but I don't think he invented the split-fingered fastball. I believe former Giants coach Roger Craig is most responsible for the pitch's widespread use (although a similar pitch -- the forkball -- was used much earlier). Some would say Craig is most to blame, with all the pitchers who used it now having shoulders comprised of hamburger meat.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:14 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
Pretty much the same story as Koufax, and I don't think many would question his place in the Hall.<hr></blockquote><p>Koufax had four magnificent years (and one very good year). Strange to say, Total Baseball does not rate him as the most valuable pitcher in any of those years. Taking the four seasons together, Marichal gets the top rating. That's in part because Marichal was a better hitter, and Total Baseball takes hitting into account when assessing a pitcher's overall contribution to the team. Also, Koufax benefited by pitching home games in Dodger Stadium, a pitching-friendly park, and so Total Baseball downgrades his stats accordingly.<p>[ January 07, 2004: Message edited by: ADKbrown ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:16 pm 
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Well, I've just come across an article that suggests Roger Craig became a convert to the split-fingered pitch after the success of Sutter. So give Sutter the extra credit after all. I still don't know if that should make him a Hall of Famer.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:32 pm 
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Like Eckersley, Molitor was a modern specialist as 1,457 of his hits came as a designated hitter. -- NYT.<p>*I don't think not playing a position in the field makes you a "specialist."*


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:49 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
Like Eckersley, Molitor was a modern specialist as 1,457 of his hits came as a designated hitter. -- NYT.<p>*I don't think not playing a position in the field makes you a "specialist."*<hr></blockquote><p>And as Molitor pointed out in his conference call, he often influenced games with his speed. He stole 504 bases in his 21 seasons.<p>I wonder if Harold Baines will get elected when he is eligible in 2006? His candidacy will be the true test of whether a DH should be enshrined. He hit .289 in 22 seasons, with 2,866 hits, 488 doubles, 384 HR and 1,628 RBI.<p>Is Harold Baines perhaps the hitting equivalent of a Jim Kaat (288 wins) or a Bert "Be-Home-By-11" Blyleven (287 wins and 3,701 strikeouts)? I think Kaat and Blyleven should both be in. <p>I'd vote for Baines too.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:22 am 
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I'm conflicted about Willie Stargell. He could go either way. His stats are similar to Winfield's, but I'm a believer in intangibles. I'm much more familiar with Stargell firsthand. He was one of the all-time Cub killers. He was a menace at the plate (even tho hampered by injuries throughout his career). He was the driving force in the middle of the lineup of some great pennant winners. He as much as anyone helped the Pirates come back from a 3-1 deficit in 1979. We can all think of Stargell moments like that or can remember that intimidating windmill of the bat before he crushed a clutch home run. On the other hand, what is your Dave Winfield Moment? What year did he carry a team on his shoulders to a title? Was he constantly feared with the game on the line? Was he a leader? <p>That's the difference between those two players. <p>And Harold Baines is an even better example of a gold-watch hanger-on who is clearly not Hall of Fame material. I also don't have much passion for pitchers like Blyleven and Kaat. And then there's Hall of Famer Phil Niekro, who nearly lost as many games as he won, which is bad even for a member of a perennially losing team. He lulled us to sleep for 20-some years, reached a milestone or two and won over the writers. Yet I have a soft spot for Goose Gossage. He and Sutter would be on my ballot.<p>And I don't complain about the bias toward players on good teams who get October exposure. Brooks Robinson deserves it and Ron Santo doesn't. Santo didn't make that amazing play behind third base. Robinson did. Lore counts. Jeter could quit now and he'd be a lock. Likewise, Pete Rose was a winner. He had everything you could want in a Hall of Famer. We're running a Schaugnessy Boston Globe commentary tomorrow that convinced me Rose should be kept out.
column here<p>[ January 08, 2004: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]</p>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:33 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:02 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
And I don't complain about the bias toward players on good teams who get October exposure. Brooks Robinson deserves it and Ron Santo doesn't. Santo didn't make that amazing play behind third base. Robinson did. Lore counts. Jeter could quit now and he'd be a lock. Likewise, Pete Rose was a winner. He had everything you could want in a Hall of Famer. We're running a Schaugnessy Boston Globe commentary tomorrow that convinced me Rose should be kept out.<hr></blockquote><p>
Wow. I'm a Yankees fan, but I can't agree with the Jeter remark. Not only is he not a lock now, he has a lot more to do in the years ahead to get in. He's just a very good shortstop on a successful team. And "very good" doesn't cut it for the Hall. There are at least two, maybe three better shortstops than him in his league alone.<p>Lore may influence some voters, but it doesn't "count," per se. The HoF voting rules actually state that voters should not consider individual remarkable feats outside the total context of the player's career. That's why people like Roger Maris and Don Larsen aren't in the Hall. Jeter's play to throw out Jeremy Giambi at home plate in the 2001 ALDS was one of the most wonderful and implausible things I've ever seen, but it doesn't add to his Hall credentials. Especially since it was only made relevant by Little G's boneheaded decision not to slide.<p>Yeah, Jeter's rings will get him a few more Hall votes than your average bear, but they won't get him in without a big turnaround in his offensive numbers, which have declined every year.<p>I agree on Rose. I was against him but willing to change my mind until last week. His non-apology, non-confession solidified my position. We shouldn't have lower standards for higher performers.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:52 pm 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjmoney62:
[QB]We're running a Schaugnessy Boston Globe commentary tomorrow that convinced me Rose should be kept out.
column here<p>Shaughnessy has been on my Bookmarks for years. He and Bob Ryan, another *Globe* sports columnist who often writes about baseball and the Red Sox, are terrific. And Gordon Edes, the Red Sox beat writer for the *Globe,* writes a baseball-overview column that appears every Sunday, even in the offseason, and does a great job of satiating a baseball fan's thirst for fresh fodder.<p>George Vecsey wrote a great column the other day for the *Times* stating the case for admitting Rose to the Hall but banning him from the dugout forevermore. I think he should be in for his achievements on the field, but he absolutely cannot be trusted to be in a field position ever again.<p>[ January 08, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:00 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
Koufax had four magnificent years (and one very good year). Strange to say, Total Baseball does not rate him as the most valuable pitcher in any of those years. Taking the four seasons together, Marichal gets the top rating. That's in part because Marichal was a better hitter, and Total Baseball takes hitting into account when assessing a pitcher's overall contribution to the team.<hr></blockquote>My left butt cheek was a better hitter than Koufax. ;) But that got me to thinking -- by those standards, how does Total Baseball rate Drysdale? He had one year where his numbers would've been good if translated into an every-day player's -- 7 HR, I think 31 RBI. But then, he was generally somewhere around the .500 mark in W-L, except for a couple of seasons. Marichal hit around .300 one year, if memory serves, and he also had the benefit -- again, going on memory -- of that oddity wherein his club scored runs for him. I think he won like 21 games with an ERA over 3.00 (the cutoff point in those days), while Gaylord Perry in that same season was something like 16-17 with an ERA under 3.00 because the Giants didn't hit for him like they did for Marichal. But when Marichal was on -- with all those pitches and all that motion -- he was as unhittable as Koufax. When they faced each other, you took the phone off the hook and carried a radio into the bathroom.<p>Now I'm gonna go look all this up and see how bad my memory's gotten.<p>(Apropos of nothing, I had a prime opportunity to meet Koufax when he was a minor-league pitching instructor in the Dodgers system. I was in the press box before a California League game and he was alone in the dugout, but I just couldn't do it. As I wrote later, it would've been like an altar boy introducing himself to the Pope.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:01 pm 
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JJ,<p>As far as a signature Winfield Moment goes, I can't come up with one. He wasn't known as a team leader and didn't carry the Yankees or the Padres (as far as I know) on his back the way Stargell did. In fact, George Steinbrenner famously (and ignorantly, natch) maligned Winfield as "Mr. May" for Winfield's failure in the 1981 postseason.<p>But surely Winfield's home-run cut was every bit as well known to baseball fans as Stargell's windmilling of his bat. Winfield would plant his left (front) foot and uncoil his 6-6 frame from a modified crouch and swing ferociously, his bat tracing a tremendous arc through the strike zone and across his body as he finished his follow through (and sometimes inadvertently helicoptered his bat into the stands for lack of pine tar).Winfield's home runs were known for being "frozen ropes"--they were hit so hard they got out of the park extremely quickly, usually on a low trajectory.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 3:32 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjmoney62:
[QB]We're running a Schaugnessy Boston Globe commentary tomorrow that convinced me Rose should be kept out.
column here
<hr></blockquote>Shaughnessy's points are valid and difficult to argue, but here's an apples-and-oranges comparison that I'm posting only to stir things up some more (insert evil grin): <p>OK, ban Rose from the Hall, from the dugout, from the front office. I think it's a mistake to keep him out of the Hall, but I'm not gonna protest if it happens. But while you're doing that, how do you explain to your kids that it's right to punish Rose for his indiscretions while there're streets and schools and airports named for Ronald Reagan, and some folks even want his likeness on Mt. Rushmore and on U.S. currency -- and this was the guy who authorized the sale of those nasty old WMDs to Iran to finance a covert war in Central America, and then let Ollie North take the fall after a lame "mistakes were made" explanation?<p>Let the fur fly.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:24 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
OK, ban Rose from the Hall, from the dugout, from the front office. I think it's a mistake to keep him out of the Hall, but I'm not gonna protest if it happens. But while you're doing that, how do you explain to your kids that it's right to punish Rose for his indiscretions while there're streets and schools and airports named for Ronald Reagan, and some folks even want his likeness on Mt. Rushmore and on U.S. currency -- and this was the guy who authorized the sale of those nasty old WMDs to Iran to finance a covert war in Central America, and then let Ollie North take the fall after a lame "mistakes were made" explanation?<hr></blockquote><p>Yeah, we do live in a hypocritical society. And baseball is incredibly hypocritical--banishing Rose while putting on a blindfold over a bandanna over a face mask regarding its raging steroid/drug problem. But as much as I think it's unconscionable that Bud "Kenesaw Molehill" Selig is a commissioner, I have to admire him for standing fast on Rose. I hope he continues to.<p>(I didn't come up with the Molehill nickname, as great and apropos I think it is. It was the invention of a baseball columnist for a major metro daily.)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:56 pm 
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For what it's worth, I came across this while searching for sabrmetric rankings of Rose:<p>17) What about complaints that Pete Rose hung on too long in pursuit of the hit record?<p>By the early eighties, Rose's play had dropped below the levels that would normally be required for a first baseman to stay in the starting lineup. He was awful in his last year with the Phillies (1983), and continued with the Expos in 1984 primarily to pursue his 4000th hit.<p>While most other teams wouldn't have considered him productive enough to be in the lineup, Rose returned to Cincinnati as a player-manager, where he could (and did) write his own name in the lineup. Even after he broke Cobb's record, he played another year before being forced to retire.<p>Most people acknowledge that Rose put himself in the Reds lineup at the expense of other more qualified players. For example, it seemed to make sense to play Nick Esasky at first base, and give the leftfield job to Eric Davis or Kal Daniels. With Rose at first, Esasky was stuck in leftfield and Davis and Daniels probably were kept in the minors too long.<p>Many would argue that this selfish behavior hurt the team, and that the Reds might have finished better than second had he allowed younger players to get the playing time he was giving himself. Others argue that Reds fans wanted Rose in the lineup, and that the interest in his pursuit of the record justified his playing ahead of better players.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:10 pm 
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Found the stat I was looking for (this is from a The Best Of Talkin' Baseball By Jim Hamilton):<p>Based on Pete Palmer's linear Weights rating system, Rose's Total Baseball Ranking is 20.0, tied (with pitchers Mel Harder and Sparky Lyle) for 284th place on the all-time list, but he was a better player than that. He simply didn't know when to quit. If he'd retired five years sooner than he did, he would be at 26.1, 175th on the all-time list, instead of 20.0 and a 284th-place tie.<p>And even at 284th, he ranks ahead of many players who are in the Hall of Fame.<p>*I'm not saying Rose does not belong in the Hall of Fame. The hits record speaks for itself. But he was a one-dimensional player. He had no power, didn't steal many bases and was a mediocre fielder. *


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:13 am 
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Yes, ADK, you are drowning in stats. I was never a fan of his, but Pete Rose was a winner. He was a catalyst. He was often an inspiration. He did many things that can't be quantified. He probably was even a bigger asshole than Ty Cobb. And nearly every ballplayer hangs on too long. It's their nature.<p>And Matthew G, the key phrase of your Derek Jeter post is "outside the total context of the player's career." You CAN count that play at home plate if you keep it in context. Maybe a few other players have slightly better stats, but again, he's a winner. He's the main reason the Yanks won as often as they did. He's Mr. November. He's the most successful player of the last 10 years. He's already more qualified than, say, short-timer Kirby Puckett.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:27 am 
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And one more thing about Keith Hernandez. I wasn't arguing that he was Hall of Fame material. My point was that as a player, he compares favorably to Winfield, yet he couldn't muster 25 votes, whereas Winfield waltzed into the Hall. Sure, Hernandez didn't hit home runs and didn't play 23 years, but that's really his only shortcoming compared with Winfield. KH was probably a better fielder and perhaps a better clutch hitter, and then there's the MVP and the championships he was central to.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:16 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
And Matthew G, the key phrase of your Derek Jeter post is "outside the total context of the player's career." You CAN count that play at home plate if you keep it in context. Maybe a few other players have slightly better stats, but again, he's a winner. He's the main reason the Yanks won as often as they did. He's Mr. November. He's the most successful player of the last 10 years. He's already more qualified than, say, short-timer Kirby Puckett.<hr></blockquote><p>
I disagree, but I'll set that aside for now. You think that he'd get 75% of the vote in 2009 if he retired today? Regardless of how he stacks up against his contemporaries, I don't think he would.<p>Was a time, he might have. But voters have gotten more stingy in the past few decades, which I applaud. Although a few deserving souls have been left out (can't Blyleven get some love?) for the most part I welcome it in an age when America seems to lack standards in much of anything else. Especially now that the Veterans Committee consists only of the living Hall of Famers, the doorway to Cooperstown is narrower than ever before. I wouldn't be surprised if the Veterans never elect anybody, period. Mazeroski is probably the last eyebrow-raising Hall of Famer we'll see unless they change the rules on us again (heck of a guy, heck of a double-play man, gave the best induction "speech" ever, but doesn't belong).<p>[ January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Matthew Grieco ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:49 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
Let the fur fly.<hr></blockquote><p>Not worth the trouble. History has already made its judgment of Reagan's presidency, and it's the right one -- which is to say, not the same as yours.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:22 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
History has already made its judgment of Reagan's presidency<hr></blockquote>Some people (wordygurdy) get the point. Others don't.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:23 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
<p>I disagree, but I'll set that aside for now. You think that he'd get 75% of the vote in 2009 if he retired today? Regardless of how he stacks up against his contemporaries, I don't think he would.<p>Was a time, he might have. But voters have gotten more stingy in the past few decades, which I applaud. <hr></blockquote><p>No matter how the vote would go, he's deserving. <p>And I'm with you on applauding the stinginess and high standards, so join me in keeping out the Winfields and Baineses and the journeymen pitchers. This is what happens when you let Don Sutton in the door ...


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:41 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Yes, ADK, you are drowning in stats. I was never a fan of his, but Pete Rose was a winner. He was a catalyst. He was often an inspiration. He did many things that can't be quantified. He probably was even a bigger asshole than Ty Cobb. And nearly every ballplayer hangs on too long. It's their nature.<hr></blockquote><p>I believe stats reveal more about a player's value than impressions. I too have memories of Brook Robinson making miraculous plays at third base, but I'm not sure he was a better overall player than Ron Santo. I'll have to look it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:43 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
<p>No matter how the vote would go, he's deserving. <p>And I'm with you on applauding the stinginess and high standards, so join me in keeping out the Winfields and Baineses and the journeymen pitchers. This is what happens when you let Don Sutton in the door ...<hr></blockquote><p>I'll say this much: Jeter is more deserving than Rabbit Maranville or Phil Rizzuto.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:48 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
<p>I believe stats reveal more about a player's value than impressions. I too have memories of Brook Robinson making miraculous plays at third base, but I'm not sure he was a better overall player than Ron Santo. I'll have to look it up.<hr></blockquote>


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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
This is what happens when you let Don Sutton in the door ...<hr></blockquote>If nothing else, Sutton should be kept out of the Hall purely because of his hair.<p>Hey, did Sutton ever admit to throwing the spitter or did he just not put much effort into denying it?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:14 pm 
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Cherry-picking from the last 6 years, how do we like this starting nine?<p>C -- Gary Carter
1B -- Eddie Murray
2B -- Bill Mazeroski
SS -- Ozzie Smith
3B -- Paul Molitor
OF -- Dave Winfield
OF -- Robin Yount
OF -- Kirby Puckett
P -- Don Sutton


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:52 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
<p>Not worth the trouble. History has already made its judgment of Reagan's presidency, and it's the right one -- which is to say, not the same as yours.<hr></blockquote><p>
Too soon for that. I don't consider "history" a factor until most of the people involved in an era are dead. After another half century history will recognize that Reagan was the political beneficiary of the inevitable death of Soviet communism. Take Gorbachev out of the picture and put in a typical Soviet hard-liner, and Reagan is just a guy who tried to make ketchup a vegetable.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:58 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
If nothing else, Sutton should be kept out of the Hall purely because of his hair.<p>Hey, did Sutton ever admit to throwing the spitter or did he just not put much effort into denying it?<hr></blockquote><p>Don Sutton works as the Braves' color commentator now, and his primary role is to remind TBS viewers at least once a game that he is in the Hall of Fame.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:38 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Cherry-picking from the last 6 years, how do we like this starting nine?<p>C -- Gary Carter
1B -- Eddie Murray
2B -- Bill Mazeroski
SS -- Ozzie Smith
3B -- Paul Molitor
OF -- Dave Winfield
OF -- Robin Yount
OF -- Kirby Puckett
P -- Don Sutton
<hr></blockquote><p>Certainly not the best Hall of Fame lineup, but good enough to win the World Series in most years, assuming you have some decent pitchers.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:04 pm 
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As far as current Yankees who will go into the Hall of Fame, from the perspective of a Yankee fan:<p>Jeter is well on his way to Cooperstown. But his offensive stats at the very least haven't been on an upward trajectory, which probably isn't good. He also makes a lot of errors (as many as 24 in a season, though fewer lately), though you could argue that that's because he gets to more balls than other shortstops might. <p>On the plus side, he is unquestionably the team leader--the Stargell Test that JJ referred to--and a five-time All-Star, and he plays a crucial position. He has won four World Series and played in six, all before age 30. He is, with Rodriguez, Tejada and Garciaparra, among the dominant players at his position and has been since he broke in in 1996. <p>I think if Jeter continues to produce at, say, a pace of .300, 20 to 25 HRs, 100 or so RBI and 20 or so SBs each season for the next seven or eight years, he will have compiled gaudy enough stats to gain entry. After nine seasons, he is halfway to 3,000 hits at 1,546. He is almost halfway to 300 home runs at 127. He has 178 stolen bases, and his career batting average is .317. He has knocked in 615 runs. He has been a Rookie of the Year and a World Series MVP. (He has also been an All-Star Game MVP, but big whup.)<p>If by the time he retires he gets to a career average near .300, hits about 400 home runs, notches more than 3,000 hits and records 400 stolen bases, that should be plenty to enshrine him. (Maybe he can pick up an MVP or two in the next few years of his prime.) Cal Ripken, his consecutive-games streak and two MVPs aside, had similar career numbers to the ones I have described: .276, 431 HR, 3,184 hits. (Ripken stole only 36--yikes!--bases in his career!) <p>Mariano Rivera is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, reliever bias be damned. He has been arguably the most indispensable cog on the four world championship teams and the dominant closer in the game since 1996. I hope the Yankees don't treat him in 2004 the way they treated Andy Pettitte in 2003, because Rivera's contract is up after '04. Rivera, 34, in nine seasons has 283 saves , a 2.49 ERA, 43 wins, 582 strikeouts in 650 innings and the immense respect of opponents as well as gratitude of fans.<p>Joe Torre will also go into Cooperstown as a manager. Four Series titles are enough.<p>That's about it among the current group of Yankees.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:11 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Cherry-picking from the last 6 years, how do we like this starting nine?<p>C -- Gary Carter
1B -- Eddie Murray
2B -- Bill Mazeroski
SS -- Ozzie Smith
3B -- Paul Molitor
OF -- Dave Winfield
OF -- Robin Yount
OF -- Kirby Puckett
P -- Don Sutton
<hr></blockquote><p>I'm guessing you think these are among the weakest Hall of Famers, but it's still a damn good lineup with airtight (with the possible exception of Murray) defense. You've got power, speed (with the exception of Carter) and average from one to eight. You would have to flesh out the pitching staff beyond Sutton for a more informed judgment and appraisal.<p>[ January 09, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:24 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
<p>I'm guessing you think these are among the weakest Hall of Famers, but it's still a damn good lineup with airtight (with the possible exception of Murray) defense. You've got power, speed (with the exception of Carter) and average from one to eight. You would have to flesh out the pitching staff beyond Sutton for a more informed judgment and appraisal.
<hr></blockquote><p>OK, the rest of your rotation: Phil Niekro, Jim Bunning and Nolan Ryan. Closer: Dennis Eckersley.<p>Working backward, put it up against this lineup:
C -- Johnny Bench
1B -- Rod Carew (Can I have Tony Perez?)
2B -- Joe Morgan
SS -- Phil Rizzuto
3B -- Mike Schmidt
OF -- Reggie Jackson
OF -- Willie Stargell
OF -- Billy Williams<p>Rotation: Carlton / Jenkins / Palmer / Seaver
Closer: Fingers


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:34 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
<p>OK, the rest of your rotation: Phil Niekro, Jim Bunning and Nolan Ryan. Closer: Dennis Eckersley.<p>Working backward, put it up against this lineup:
C -- Johnny Bench
1B -- Rod Carew (Can I have Tony Perez?)
2B -- Joe Morgan
SS -- Phil Rizzuto
3B -- Mike Schmidt
OF -- Reggie Jackson
OF -- Willie Stargell
OF -- Billy Williams<p>Rotation: Carlton / Jenkins / Palmer / Seaver
Closer: Fingers
<hr></blockquote><p>O.K., the rotation that you gave me is subpar compared with yours. Bullpen is equal. <p>In addition, I'd take Bench over Carter, Morgan over Mazeroski (Mazeroski's selection by the vets was a complete joke) and your outfield with the possible exceptions of Stargell and Williams. I'd stick with my team otherwise.<p>As we discussed, I think Winfield is Stargell's equal, and I'm not familiar enough with Williams to take him over Puckett or Yount. Puckett in his prime was a formidable player, and so was Yount.<p>[ January 09, 2004: Message edited by: wordygurdy ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:52 pm 
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That said, JJ, I think I'd still like to see a one-game matchup between those two lineups. I would take Nolan Ryan as my starter from the group you picked. Whom would you take?<p>I think it would be an entertaining game.<p>By the way, are you a sports copy editor for your paper? Is it the *Albuquerque Journal*? You guys have run ads for copy editors in the past few months.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:29 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:

By the way, are you a sports copy editor for your paper?
<hr></blockquote><p>If he keeps this up, he will be before long.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:09 am 
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This just in:<p>Every fan has fantasized about picking up the phone and talking sports with Steve Young, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Mike Ditka. (No, they haven't.)
Or about asking Pete Rose why he would gamble away the Hall of Fame. (Or asking John Kruk how his you-know-whats are doing.)
It's an impossible fantasy given brief credibility Wednesday by The Associated Press.
(An organization known for brief credibility). The world's largest wire service accidentally transmitted an internal list of sports figures' phone numbers to many of its media customers.
The AP phone list, packed with more than 750 celebrity listings -- many of them home and cell numbers -- would seem a fantastic resource, if nothing else, for settling barroom bets.
(And debates about copy editing.)
Predictably, within 24 hours, angry sports figures were calling the AP to ask why their confidential numbers were released to the world. ...

(Salt Lake Tribune)<p>...<p>[ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: SeaRaven ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:29 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
That said, JJ, I think I'd still like to see a one-game matchup between those two lineups.<hr></blockquote><p>That's why God invented Strat-O-Matic Baseball.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:37 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
After another half century history will recognize that Reagan was the political beneficiary of the inevitable death of Soviet communism.<hr></blockquote><p>Sure, Reagan was the beneficiary. He deserved to be. He was part of the reason for the death of Soviet communism in the first place. Ah, how soon we forget.<p>Naturally, the inconvenience of the facts has historical revisionists already scrambling to change the record. But at least it'll keep sociology professors preoccupied for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 2:48 am 
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Please!
Mr. Blanchard designed Testy Copy Editors as a forum for tedious sports talk, not partisan political sniping.<p>...<p>[ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: SeaRaven ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 7:35 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
That said, JJ, I think I'd still like to see a one-game matchup between those two lineups. I would take Nolan Ryan as my starter from the group you picked. Whom would you take?<p>I think it would be an entertaining game.<p>By the way, are you a sports copy editor for your paper? Is it the *Albuquerque Journal*? You guys have run ads for copy editors in the past few months.<hr></blockquote><p>Nolan Ryan's your big-game pitcher? You'll need Bunning by the 4th inning. I'll get all nostalgic on you and go with Fergie Jenkins, altho I'd love to watch Carlton eat up Winfield all afternoon with the slider down and in. <p>Am I a sporto? Not really. Altho we here at the Trib are a truly universal desk, so we all read sports copy. (We, too, expect to have a lucrative opening soon. Can any y'all handle 55 and sunny this week?) I had a notorious stint on the sports desk in Chicago during the era in which Michael Jordan transitioned from baseball back to basketball. My six-month stint was notable for two things: its abrupt end, and the cover tease I wrote when Jordan appeared to have abandoned his Birmingham minor league teammates: "Michael boltin'?"<p>[ January 10, 2004: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:29 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:

... the cover tease I wrote when Jordan appeared to have abandoned his Birmingham minor league teammates: "Michael boltin'?"<p>
<hr></blockquote><p>Good God. But, then, you were still wet behind the ears.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:58 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:

And if Lou Gehrig hadn't gotten his namesake disease, he'd still be the consecutive-games leader.
<hr></blockquote><p>The thing that's really bizarre about that is how a guy named Lou Gehrig contracted Lou Gehrig's disease. I mean, what are the odds?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:25 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SeaRaven:
<p>The thing that's really bizarre about that is how a guy named Lou Gehrig contracted Lou Gehrig's disease. I mean, what are the odds?<hr></blockquote><p>It's more common than you think, considering Tommy John had to get Tommy John surgery.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:24 pm 
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Why the hell do we have to talk about baseball?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:44 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
Why the hell do we have to talk about baseball?<hr></blockquote><p>We don't *have* to. We *choose* to.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:09 am 
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As Sam Goldwyn (I think) said, include me out.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:01 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
<p>I believe stats reveal more about a player's value than impressions. I too have memories of Brook Robinson making miraculous plays at third base, but I'm not sure he was a better overall player than Ron Santo. I'll have to look it up.<hr></blockquote><p>Well, I finally looked it up (in Total Baseball and in the first edition of Bill James's Historical Baseball Abstract). Both were good hitters and good fielders, but Santo was the better hitter and Robinson the better fielder. Total Baseball rates Santo higher than Robinson in overall value. James thinks Santo deserves to be in the Hall, but he loves Robinson, so he probably would choose him over Santo.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:21 pm 
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ADK, <p>Both Santo and Robinson were a bit before my time, but I'm more familiar with Robinson's exploits as a fan of the American League (also possibly because Robinson made more highlight films than did Santo). I can't argue with either player's worthiness of the Hall.<p>What about Rafael Palmeiro? He is a hanger-on, but he already has 500-plus home runs and will probably get to 3,000 hits in '05. Should he get into the Hall?<p>I don't think so, and I said I would vote for Baines. Maybe I should re-evaluate that one.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:33 pm 
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Palmeiro's much closer than Baines.<p>How many more home runs would Ruth and Aaron have had if Viagra were around back then?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:34 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
What about Rafael Palmeiro? He is a hanger-on, but he already has 500-plus home runs and will probably get to 3,000 hits in '05. Should he get into the Hall?<p>I don't think so, and I said I would vote for Baines. Maybe I should re-evaluate that one.<hr></blockquote><p>I'd have to take a closer look at him, but his stats certainly look good: 528 homers, nearly 3,000 hits, nearly 1,700 RBIs and a .291 average. Mickey Mantle had 536 homers, 2,415 hits, 1,509 RBIs and a .298 average. Both over 18 seasons. What's the argument against?


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:06 pm 
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Nothing tangible, really, ADK. I guess I"ve applied JJ's Stargell Test to Palmeiro and found him wanting. Though his stats were consistently excellent, he was always a me-first player who wasn't interested in leading whatever team he was playing for.<p>But given that Orlando Cepeda is in (another heinous error on the vets' part), it wouldn't surprise me if Palmeiro gets in. And Palmeiro is worthier than Cepeda.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:47 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
(also possibly because Robinson made more highlight films than did Santo). <hr></blockquote>I think Santo was every bit as good a glove as Robinson. Brooks has the better rep largely because he did some of his most incredible work on the World Series stage. (I can still see quite clearly the play where he threw out... gad, who was it?... from foul territory.)<p>Anyway, baseball people don't put a lot of stock in fielding averages because they don't tell you how many balls a guy doesn't get to because he doesn't have the range. I'd much rather have the guy who just misses the great play when it goes off his glove for an error (depending on the scorer) than the guy who can't get near the same ball and the hitter gets on, but there's no error.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:19 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
Anyway, baseball people don't put a lot of stock in fielding averages because they don't tell you how many balls a guy doesn't get to because he doesn't have the range. I'd much rather have the guy who just misses the great play when it goes off his glove for an error (depending on the scorer) than the guy who can't get near the same ball and the hitter gets on, but there's no error.<hr></blockquote><p>You're right about fielding averages, O.E. But there are other stats that fill in some of the blanks, such as the number of chances a fielder handles--that is, how many balls he gets to per game. Over the course of a season or a career, that is a telling statistic.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:53 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
But there are other stats that fill in some of the blanks, such as the number of chances a fielder handles--that is, how many balls he gets to per game. Over the course of a season or a career, that is a telling statistic.<hr></blockquote>Yeah, if you compared SS Joe Schmuck's chances to SS Marv Mettenrund's (or, better, to the league average) and then figured in their respective assists, putouts and errors, you'd have something. But to get an accurate evaluation, you'd have to do a SABR thing (which I don't) and factor in such variables as left- and right-handed pitching, infield characteristics, etc. And you'd still need stats on how many chances a guy handled compared to how many balls were hit into his zone -- not his range, but an established area in which a fielder "should" be able to get to a ball.<p>This just proves that every stat in creation isn't as good as watching a guy play day after day.<p>(It's probably a good thing I didn't become a baseball statistician like I once wanted to. Most fans would freakin' hate me for being so anal.)


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:48 pm 
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George Vecsey has another great column in today's *Times* about Pete Rose. Right on, George!<p>George is the antithesis of vulgar (he is erudite and courtly), but I wonder if perhaps the *Times*' copy desk changed "hard asses" to "hard cases"? Either term is applicable, but "hard asses" seems to fit a bit better.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:10 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
I think Santo was every bit as good a glove as Robinson. Brooks has the better rep largely because he did some of his most incredible work on the World Series stage. (I can still see quite clearly the play where he threw out... gad, who was it?... from foul territory.)<p>Anyway, baseball people don't put a lot of stock in fielding averages because they don't tell you how many balls a guy doesn't get to because he doesn't have the range. I'd much rather have the guy who just misses the great play when it goes off his glove for an error (depending on the scorer) than the guy who can't get near the same ball and the hitter gets on, but there's no error.<hr></blockquote>


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:17 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
I think Santo was every bit as good a glove as Robinson. Brooks has the better rep largely because he did some of his most incredible work on the World Series stage. (I can still see quite clearly the play where he threw out... gad, who was it?... from foul territory.)<p>Anyway, baseball people don't put a lot of stock in fielding averages because they don't tell you how many balls a guy doesn't get to because he doesn't have the range. I'd much rather have the guy who just misses the great play when it goes off his glove for an error (depending on the scorer) than the guy who can't get near the same ball and the hitter gets on, but there's no error.<hr></blockquote><p>League MVP
B. Robinson: Yes
Santo: No<p>All-Star MVP
B. Robinson: Yes
Santo: No<p>World Series MVP
B. Robinson: Yes
Santo: Hey, don't rub it in<p>Bush-league "heel-click" after victory
Santo: Yes
B. Robinson: Way too much class


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:57 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
George Vecsey has another great column in today's *Times* about Pete Rose. Right on, George!<p>George is the antithesis of vulgar (he is erudite and courtly), but I wonder if perhaps the *Times*' copy desk changed "hard asses" to "hard cases"? Either term is applicable, but "hard asses" seems to fit a bit better.<hr></blockquote><p>It's a good column, but is anybody bothered by this: "Uncle Buddy could have found a way to make Pete the Player eligible for the writers' vote, while still barring Pete the Person from ever working in baseball. Heck, I think I was counseling Selig to do that expedient thing a week ago. But now? As Michael Kay says: See ya."?<p>I hope he meant offering counsel via his column.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 11:10 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nyet:
League MVP
B. Robinson: Yes
Santo: No
<hr></blockquote>(Et cetera.)<p>None of which has anything to do with their respective fielding skills, which was the entire point of the post.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:53 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
<p>It's a good column, but is anybody bothered by this: "Uncle Buddy could have found a way to make Pete the Player eligible for the writers' vote, while still barring Pete the Person from ever working in baseball. Heck, I think I was counseling Selig to do that expedient thing a week ago. But now? As Michael Kay says: See ya."?<p>I hope he meant offering counsel via his column.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, ADK, he did. His column last week argued for just that cause. <p>As an interesting aside, Vecsey wrote late last year--in a nonsports column about cleaning out his parents' house after his mother died--that his father had been a copy editor for the Associated Press.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this hed a hit? (Nothing like copy editors discussing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:48 pm 
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by jjmoney62:
[QB]<p>My offbeat pick is Bruce Sutter. He's an oddball ...<p>And after mention of John Kruk -- Sttthet, you're killing me!


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