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 Post subject: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 8:32 pm 
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I mentioned to a co-worker tonight that the "narrative" in daily newspapers is finally on the way out. He scoffed. I pointed out that if we are all serious about reforming "in the post-Blair, post-Kelley era," it can't be any other way.<p>Of course, there are strong indications that "we" are not very serious.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:13 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
I mentioned to a co-worker tonight that the "narrative" in daily newspapers is finally on the way out. He scoffed. I pointed out that if we are all serious about reforming "in the post-Blair, post-Kelley era," it can't be any other way.<p>Of course, there are strong indications that "we" are not very serious.<hr></blockquote><p>Are you opposed to any narrative in a newspaper?


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:34 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Todd J. Behme:
<p>Are you opposed to any narrative in a newspaper?<hr></blockquote><p>I am opposed to any newspaper story in which it is unclear who is being quoted. I am opposed to any newspaper story that contains quotations that the author could not possibly have heard. I am against presenting as fact an account based on but not attributed to the recollections of others. I am opposed to making up stuff.<p>It's not like I'm breaking new ground here.<p>[ April 22, 2004: Message edited by: blanp ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:49 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
<p>I am opposed to any newspaper story in which it is unclear who is being quoted. I am opposed to any newspaper story that contains quotations that the author could not possibly have heard. I am against presenting as fact an account based on but not attributed to the recollections of others. I am opposed to making up stuff.<p>It's not like I'm breaking new ground here.<p>[ April 22, 2004: Message edited by: blanp ]<hr></blockquote><p>Using the recollections of others is dicey, yes, especially when using direct quotes from those recollections. Who remembers verbatim what he or she -- and especially other people -- said during an event, meeting, etc. But isn't there any room for a reporter and his or her editors to use some judgment in an effort to tell the story well? And what if there is evidence of the recollections, such as a tape? Wouldn't it be cumbersome to write "according to a tape recording of the meeting"?<p>For the record, I'm against making stuff up, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:56 pm 
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If a quotation comes from a tape recording, there's no reason on Earth why you shouldn't say so.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:59 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
If a quotation comes from a tape recording, there's no reason on Earth why you shouldn't say so.<hr></blockquote><p>Are you OK with the construction that avoids repeated attribution by beginning an account with something like, "According to the people at the meeting, this is what happened:"?


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:10 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Todd J. Behme:
<p>Are you OK with the construction that avoids repeated attribution by beginning an account with something like, "According to the people at the meeting, this is what happened:"?<hr></blockquote><p>
As long as the people at the meeting are identified, that's OK.
I think we all know what I'm talking about here.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 8:59 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
<p>I am against presenting as fact an account based on but not attributed to the recollections of others.
[ April 22, 2004: Message edited by: blanp ]
<hr></blockquote>
My university studies involved substantial reading of ''recollections'' of people involved in Cold War decisions of the early 1960s. I to this day watch with interest as more ''recollections'' come out, especially from the former Soviet Union.<p>It all seems arcane but teaches a valuable lesson about how sources will lie, omit or otherwise distort.<p>blanp's objection is sensible


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 10:32 pm 
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I'm working on the presumption that your methodology and ethics are excellent but too often I read stuff that gives me pause for thought about these matters.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 11:03 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
[QB]Don't knock narrative. There are stories and there are articles and if you're smart you know the difference between the twain. The thing is, it takes a tremendous amount of talent, skill, effort, and practice as a writer and a reporter to pull off a piece of literature that works as a story without fiddling some bits. ...<p> But I like narrative & I'm good at it up to 50" or so. [QB]<hr></blockquote><p>Awright, slummer. Show your hand.<p>[ April 27, 2004: Message edited by: jmcg ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:09 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
There's room for everyone in the sandbox.<hr></blockquote><p>My point here is that necessity someday will dictate that there's no room in the newspaper for stories in which it isn't clear who is saying what and exactly how we know it, in which unknowable details are related and in which a "story" takes precedence over substance.
There will be plenty of places to practice the "narrative." In its current form, though, the technique will be the death of us if it is not made to disappear.
I think we have arrived, or nearly arrived, at the point where the "narrative" is unbelievable even if it's true.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:53 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
<p>My point here is that necessity someday will dictate that there's no room in the newspaper for stories in which it isn't clear who is saying what and exactly how we know it, in which unknowable details are related and in which a "story" takes precedence over substance.
<hr></blockquote><p>That day was the first I entered a newsroom. Nothing I have seen changes my opinion. Just the facts Ma'am.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 3:10 am 
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Technical question: Can we give this little diarist his own forum category? I'd be willing to give up Baseball if it's a matter of server space.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:52 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Technical question: Can we give this little diarist his own forum category? I'd be willing to give up Baseball if it's a matter of server space.<hr></blockquote><p>Dude, why must you harsh on my (and presumably your) Baseball mellow?


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:48 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
But it's also been pointed out to me that I'm wrong a lot.<hr></blockquote><p>Heh. This made me laugh after reading your post preceding it. You definitely are a character!<p>That said, I don't think financial compensation for journalists is as bad as it's made out to be sometimes. One of my college profs told me that if you could survive five years in the profession, you'd be OK after that. Well, I'm six years into my job (and out of college) and seem to be OK.<p>Although I do live in a efficiency apartment, drive a 13-year-old vehicle and ... ---<p>Gatekeeper<p>-30-


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 12:48 pm 
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Sometimes, supreme sacrifices must be made, Wordy.<p>(Btw, isn't it sweet how one minute they're running around all buzzed on candy and ice cream, and the next minute they're sleeping like an angel? They're cute at that age.)


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:25 pm 
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A good narrative doesn't need imagined conversations or "dark and stormy night" creative writing. It should stick strictly to the facts. Relentlessly answer the question: "What happened next?" <p>The reason to do a narrative is to tell the whole story from start to finish. In most of our reporting, we don't tell the story of what happened; we tell the story of the phone calls we made and who called us back. A bank heist that leads to a chase and a shootout might be told in pieces over days or weeks. On one day, we read about a shot fired. A week later, we might find out where the bullet hit.<p>It helps to get all the witnesses into the same story. It even helps the reporting when you can organize a clear sense of time and place. You and the reader end up knowing more about what happened than any single participant. That's valuable. <p>Jayson Blair, Jack Kelley and Rick Bragg have given narratives a bad name, although most of their stories weren't really narratives. Even Bob Woodward has to defend his credibility when he re-creates those private conversations in the halls of power. Mark Bowden seems to have a pretty good handle on narratives, although I'd probably tighten him up in some places, too. Bowden tends to have more respect for attribution and documentation. A narrative needs heavy-duty reporting, not prose stylings.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:28 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
And you should see the havoc I've been wreaking at poynter.org. I spent three hours crafting maybe 30 inched equivalant worth of email in response to an Australian magazine editor ..... <hr></blockquote><p>Hell fire! What self-respecting Aussie word surgeon would wade through anything of that length. If they read it, I hope their chooks turn into emus and kick their dunny down.<p>Fleet Street rules apply: Make it short. Make it early. And if you have to, make it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 7:40 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
Agreed, Bryan. That's where most reporters don't get it. Great narrative writing requires meticulous reporting and expansive note-taking, not to mention delicate craftsmanship. ... <hr></blockquote><p>His name is Brian.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:29 pm 
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I have been listening to the "Yes --I make some of it up--mea culpa" genre for twenty years--it's a rare but rich lode. Snore-making, but it has its place.<p>As for the rise of narrative, is this not related to the decline of magazines and the disappearance of the sunday supps? TV takes the hard news, the mags disappear, and narrative shifts from the mags to the rags. Presto!


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 8:42 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
You watch TV?<hr></blockquote><p>Careful, slums. You're infringing on blanp's trademark.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:20 pm 
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Slum: don't let the kids run you off ... they're just seeing if your testiness has any staying power.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 6:49 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
<p>Too much romping around message boards has eroded my grammatical precision. This struck me as a good place to go to sharpen those skills back up to par.<hr></blockquote><p>It's not.


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 Post subject: Re: Dream a Little Dream
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:30 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by slummingreporter:
Does an ad (such as the one highlighted recently in "nightmare jobs") that says "storyteller wanted" set off alarm bells at the copy desk because y'all sense that a mushy flake with no grasp of basic news skills is about to be dumped in your laps and you'll have to make sense of his drivel and get it off and plated before the trucks roll?<hr></blockquote>Yes.


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