capitalization survey

jbm · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:25 pm

Do any newspapers represented here capitalize "black" (referring to African Americans)?

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:30 pm

God, no.

Peter Sibley · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2004 7:36 pm

The Arizona Republic does.

jbm · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:00 pm

What's the Republic's reasoning on that? Do they also capitalize "white"?

Peter Sibley · **Posted:** Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:33 pm

The Republic capitalizes "white. "I'd hazard that its senior editors believe "white" and "black" are population identifiers that rise to the status of proper nouns. Maybe someone from the newspaper could confirm. That had better be the rationale, anyway.[ March 03, 2004: Message edited by: Peter Sibley ][ March 03, 2004: Message edited by: Peter Sibley ]

SusanV · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:33 pm

Well, it's godawful even if that is the "rationale."

nstockdale · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 1:51 pm

It is silly. I read a Poynter article on this once by Aly Colon, who was pushing for the caps. You can find it here. It includes quotes from Norm Goldstein of AP and John McIntyre of the Baltimore Sun and ACES.

Gatekeeper · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:16 pm

No caps on white or black here ...

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:40 pm

Black and white are NOT proper nouns. They should not be capitalized. And a question for my friend JBM: Do you also mean as an adjectival use, such as "people described the subject as a White male..."The logic behind doing this is beyond me, other than that someone wants to take political "correctness" into the realm of stupidity.

jbm · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:04 pm

Thanks, Nicole, for the link. It will be useful when the time comes to argue against this.This is something that some of the suited editors here want to "discuss." I can only assume, Bumf, that they would want it capitalized in every usage.

Peter Sibley · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:18 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Nicole Stockdale:
It is silly. I read a Poynter article on this once by Aly Colon, who was pushing for the caps. You can find it here. It includes quotes from Norm Goldstein of AP and John McIntyre of the Baltimore Sun and ACES.<hr></blockquote>Thanks for posting that. From McIntyre: "I'd have to see (a change to 'Black') somewhere other than my own newspaper. Not just from minority publications or fringe groups."And now he has. The Republic's circulation is around 430,000.

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:28 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Nicole Stockdale:
It is silly. I read a Poynter article on this once by Aly Colon, who was pushing for the caps. You can find it here. It includes quotes from Norm Goldstein of AP and John McIntyre of the Baltimore Sun and ACES.<hr></blockquote>I don't find it persuasive at all. He wonders why "Hispanic" is uppercase and "black" lowercase. The obvious answer is that "Hispanic" is derived from a proper noun. We uppercase "African-American" for the same reason.

Peter Sibley · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:44 pm

Precisely. Colon errantly casts it as an issue of fairness. It's as if he were to whine, "I don't understand why 'Cleveland' is capitalized when the 'doghouse in my back yard' is not.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Thu Mar 04, 2004 7:19 pm

ADK and Peter are right. Under some kind of idiotic "fairness" doctrine, why not capitalize Male and Female? This thread is making my head spin. Why don't we eliminate the whole problem and do like the Germans do...capitalize all nouns? That way, no one gets treated unfairly.Anyone who can find even the slightest tinge of racism in the fact that "black" is not capitalized is looking too hard, IMHO.

Rio · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:03 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Peter Sibley:
From McIntyre: "I'd have to see (a change to 'Black') somewhere other than my own newspaper. Not just from minority publications or fringe groups."And now he has. The Republic's circulation is around 430,000.<hr></blockquote>OK, that's one. But don't a expect a multitude of newspapers around the country to fall in line behind The Republic and its stupid style rule.This article isn't entirely fair to Norm Goldstein. He does not not base AP Stylebook rules entirely on what other newspapers do, as ColÃ³n accuses him of doing. What other newspapers do is a consideration, not the determining factor, when formulating AP style.The words "black" and "white" are descriptions of skin colors, not ethnicities, and therefore should be lowercased. Geez, this isn't rocket science.

Dapper Dan · **Joined:** Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:01 am **Posts:** 273

Are they really descriptions of skin colors? Think of the skin color of a white person you know. Now imagine, say, a shirt of this color. Would you call it "a white shirt"? I doubt it.I'm all for lowercase here, but I can see the argument for caps. The racial terms "white" and "black" are not the ordinary meanings of those words.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2004 6:30 am

Is anyone taking part in this discussion black?

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2004 8:35 am

Dan, I disagree. Black and white most definitely started out as description of skin color. When I was a boy in the South, the usage was "white" and "colored," obviously objectionable, but clearly an attempt to describe skin tone. "Colored," also used as a noun back then as "black" is now, eventually was changed to "black."Of course whites aren't white and blacks aren't black, but this is where it comes from. And this is why it should not be capitalized.

Dapper Dan · **Joined:** Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:01 am **Posts:** 273

Forgive me for continuing to play devil's advocate, Bumf, but would you therefore lowercase "Negro"? Our English racial term comes from the Spanish word that simply means "black" -- it, too, started out as a description of skin color.It seems from what I've read that it used to be lowercased, then it was capitalized for much of the 20th century before falling into disuse.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Fri Mar 05, 2004 1:14 pm

No problem with the devil's advocate bit, Dan.The "negro" thing is interesting, and the closest thing to a persuasive argument I have heard here. But I still can't buy it, and I still blame the whole thing on someone straining a little too hard to be PC.

Testy Copy Editors

capitalization survey

Who is online

What They're Saying

Useful Links