Strom Thurmond

Emily Salmon · **Joined:** Sat Nov 16, 2002 1:01 am **Posts:** 86

"Woman says she's Strom Thurmond's illegitimate mixed-race daughter" (San Francisco Chronicle)Is the term "illegitimate" really relevant? Isn't it kind of dated?And while I'm at it:
"Mr. Wheaton said Mr. Washington-Williams does not intend to ask the Thurmond estate, valued at some $200,000, for any money." (N.Y. Times)Some $200,000? Of course, I'd take it, but isn't that kind of low for a senator?

Rio · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:43 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Emily Salmon:
"Woman says she's Strom Thurmond's illegitimate mixed-race daughter" (San Francisco Chronicle)Is the term "illegitimate" really relevant? Isn't it kind of dated?<hr></blockquote>The fact that she's accusing the late Mr. Thurmond of conceiving her out of wedlock makes it relevant, at least in this particular instance. And if there's a more up-to-date term for "illegitimate," I'm all ears.

Dapper Dan · **Joined:** Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:01 am **Posts:** 273

What I found strangest was this line from The Washington Post's story:
<blockquote>quote:<hr> "I did not want anybody to know I had an illegitimate father," said Williams, who has four grown children. <hr></blockquote>It was already known that she was born out of wedlock. That would pretty much require her to have an illegitimate father, wouldn't it?

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:06 pm

I'm with Gary on this one.

tim · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:51 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Emily Salmon:
"Woman says she's Strom Thurmond's illegitimate mixed-race daughter" (San Francisco Chronicle)Is the term "illegitimate" really relevant? Isn't it kind of dated?<hr></blockquote>Would you have preferred bastard?

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:01 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
The fact that she's accusing the late Mr. Thurmond of conceiving her out of wedlock makes it relevant, at least in this particular instance. And if there's a more up-to-date term for "illegitimate," I'm all ears.<hr></blockquote>I think the term could be avoided. It strikes me, too, as dated and derogatory. It reminds me of the time we bombed Khadafy's (sp?) tent and killed his daughter. TV invariably referred to her as his "adopted daughter," as if that made her death less significant.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:11 pm

I disagree, ADK...After all, Thurmond was a public official...a U.S. senator. The fact that he had a child born on the other side of the sheets is relevant to the story.While social standards have changed for the better in how events like this are judged, it still stands that, like it or not, a high-ranking public official is held to a higher standard. Even if the standard is stupid and outdated.Enjoy the snow.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:12 pm

I wouldn't use illegitimate in New Zealand or Australia because the very notion of illegitimacy is rejected by family law. Surely the same case in various North American jurisdictions, one would hope. If I saw the whole yarn I could think of a way of casting it that still got to the heart of the matter.(follow up) Our new style book concurs and rules as follows: illegitimate:: Not to be used to describe those born out of wedlock. The term no longer applies in law. Where such a circumstance of birth must be alluded to, use ex-nuptial.[ December 14, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wiggins ]

Matthew Grieco · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:59 pm

It may take some time for the language to catch up with legal reality. Only in the 1970s did the last U.S. state eliminate the old common-law rule that illegitimate children do not automatically inherit when their parents die intestate.

Rio · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:46 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Matthew Grieco:
It may take some time for the language to catch up with legal reality.<hr></blockquote>Well put. In the meantime, "illegitimate" is a, well, legitimate term for a child born out of wedlock, at least in American English.Paul, you're not playing by the same rules we are stateside, so I can't say that recasting a story is a bad idea in your case. But I do find it peculiar that Australian English seems to lack a polite adjective to describe someone born out of wedlock. The PC-laden "ex-nuptial" is a poor alternative, IMO.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:58 pm

We tend to agree about the ex-nuptial. Have never seen it used, style book notwithstanding. Reporters cast the story to avoid the need. Have read many stories from the US where this has been handled well by careful, yet natural casting.
Ps: It should be noted that some comments I make about recasting relate to personal seniority rather than a difference in desk protocols.[ December 15, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wiggins ]

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:51 am

The Washington Post stylebook says:illegitimate
This word should not be used in referring to a person whose parents were not married. If it is necessary to raise the matter at all, use an expression such as whose mother was not married, whose parents were not married or was born to an unmarried teenager.The New York Times book says pretty much the same thing. AP is silent.Both newspapers used "illegitimate." The Post used it in its lead.The term is anachronistic. But I refuse to get into an argument over whether it's a "good word." What's relevant here is that the Times and the Post each established a style policy that was ignored in just the situation it was written to address.

Dapper Dan · **Joined:** Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:01 am **Posts:** 273

I agree with blanp completely. This is one of my biggest peeves -- those who don't bother to learn the style rules, or, worse yet, defy them deliberately. If you think the style rules don't make sense, talk to the person or people in charge of style rules about changing them.

larepublica · **Posted:** Mon Dec 15, 2003 4:41 pm

Sadly, there are not many alternatives and the extra-marital nature of the child is most germane to the story, especially given the senatorÂ´s stances on libertine sexual lifestyles and race relations. Ex-nuptial is a bit irregular by US standards and "love child" is probably not a legit alternative (pun intended). Perhaps "out-of-wedlock" would be best, though that, too, is an imperfect solution.

JB · **Posted:** Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:41 pm

You can say out-of-wedlock or whatever, but you have to point it out. In this case if she's not illegitimate, you really don't have a story. ... or maybe you do -- "STROM THURMOND SECRETLY MARRIED BLACK WOMAN."

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Mon Dec 15, 2003 9:01 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by larepublica:
Sadly, there are not many alternatives and the extra-marital nature of the child is most germane to the story, especially given the senatorÂ´s stances on libertine sexual lifestyles and race relations. Ex-nuptial is a bit irregular by US standards and "love child" is probably not a legit alternative (pun intended). Perhaps "out-of-wedlock" would be best, though that, too, is an imperfect solution.<hr></blockquote>Coming up with a synonym is not the only option. You can rephrase, write around it.Bumf, at least we can agree that snow is a good thing.

onelaneroad · **Posted:** Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:05 pm

$200,000? For a senator? That does sound low. Methinks someone misplaced a zero or two. Either that or he had debts I simply wasn't aware of.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:17 pm

Our stylebook and AP's are silent on the issue. I agree wholeheartedly that the bigger issue here is that the Post reporter/desk ignored the paper's style.

SusanV · **Posted:** Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:25 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
Our stylebook and AP's are silent on the issue. I agree wholeheartedly that the bigger issue here is that the Post reporter/desk ignored the paper's style.<hr></blockquote>I agree. FWIW, our stylebook says pretty much the same thing the Post's does, and knowing my desk colleagues, I think this is one that wouldn't have gotten by any of 'em.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Tue Dec 16, 2003 12:44 am

Note that the Post's follow-up story avoids the term. The Web site, though, used the tease, "Family of late senator confirms that he had illegitimate, mixed-race daughter."

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:41 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
Note that the Post's follow-up story avoids the term. The Web site, though, used the tease, "Family of late senator confirms that he had illegitimate, mixed-race daughter."<hr></blockquote>Changed to "Family of late senator confirms that Calif. schoolteacher is his daughter."

Rio · **Posted:** Wed Dec 17, 2003 1:59 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
Changed to "Family of late senator confirms that Calif. schoolteacher is his daughter."<hr></blockquote>The change lost the whole point of the story.

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:39 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
The change lost the whole point of the story.<hr></blockquote>Then the hed needs to be sharpened.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2003 9:44 am

Thurmond Family Struggles With Difficult Truth (New York Times)***Enough.***

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:07 am

Actually, the NY Times story is very interesting, but I agree it should be the absolute last one of the saga.

Jackie · **Posted:** Sun Dec 21, 2003 7:23 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
Actually, the NY Times story is very interesting, but I agree it should be the absolute last one of the saga.<hr></blockquote>But then the daughter (so I've heard) goes shopping for a movie-of-the-week deal.....

pzicari · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:40 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Emily Salmon:
"Woman says she's Strom Thurmond's illegitimate mixed-race daughter" (San Francisco Chronicle)
<hr></blockquote>On illegitimacy and ignoring style -- at many places, though I would not claim to work at one of them, unworkable style rules are so slow to change that ignoring them is the only way to have what's in the paper make sense.On a point no one seems to want to raise -- Most "black" Americans are of "mixed race." Why is Thurmond's daughter not "black"? I don't recall seeing that she preferred the other designation.

Rio · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:27 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Pete Zicari:
On a point no one seems to want to raise -- Most "black" Americans are of "mixed race." Why is Thurmond's daughter not "black"? I don't recall seeing that she preferred the other designation.<hr></blockquote>Thurmond's daughter isn't called "black" because there's a world of difference between being half-white and having a minute trace of white ancestry somewhere in your past.By your own uncomprimising standards, and own admission, the United States has few "blacks." Are you suggesting we call all African-Americans "mixed race" instead of "black"?What Thurmond's daughter prefers to be called isn't an issue. The whole point of the news is that she's Thurmond's "mixed-race daughter." Should we call her simply his "daughter"? That lacks the newsiness, not to mention the irony. Or "black daughter"? Nah, that would confuse readers before they even got into the story. ("What, was she adopted?") In any case, I don't recall seeing that she didn't prefer "mixed-race" over "black." So what's the problem?

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Thu Dec 25, 2003 3:42 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
Thurmond's daughter isn't called "black" because there's a world of difference between being half-white and having a minute trace of white ancestry somewhere in your past.By your own uncomprimising standards, and own admission, the United States has few "blacks." Are you suggesting we call all African-Americans "mixed race" instead of "black"?What Thurmond's daughter prefers to be called isn't an issue. <hr></blockquote>Yes it is. I thought this matter had been settles many decades ago.

Rio · **Posted:** Fri Dec 26, 2003 3:40 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Paul Wiggins:
Yes it is. I thought this matter had been settles many decades ago.<hr></blockquote>Not for the purposes of this discussion, which would have been clearer if you hadn't quoted me incompletely and out of context.

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Fri Dec 26, 2003 4:19 am

Gary, word to the wise:Never pick a fight with an Aussie on Boxing Day.---

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2003 12:03 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
Not for the purposes of this discussion, which would have been clearer if you hadn't quoted me incompletely and out of context.<hr></blockquote>Point taken. Mea culpa.

Rio · **Posted:** Sun Dec 28, 2003 11:49 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Paul Wiggins:
Point taken. Mea culpa.<hr></blockquote>No problemo.

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