Better late than never

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:44 pm

Note that AP has changed its style on "innocent," about 40 years late.

Rio · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:52 pm

What are you talking about?

tim · **Posted:** Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:26 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
Note that AP has changed its style on "innocent," about 40 years late.<hr></blockquote>A paper I once toiled for declared O.J. Simpson to be innocent, only to be reminded of the difference between "innocent" and "not guilty" the next day by many readers. To the paper's credit, no one hid behind AP style, so far as I know.

catrandom · **Posted:** Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:28 pm

Newbie leaping in: On the theory that with wire copy zipping around and typesetting on the fly, it would be easy for the "not" in a "not guilty" plea to be inadvertently dropped, AP for decades said writers and editors should say accused folks pled "innocent." In other words, we were to make a deliberate error so a theoretical error could be avoided. AP has, as blanp notes, come to its senses at last. (By way of introduction: I'm a news and features editor for a trade paper.)

Powderhorn · **Posted:** Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:34 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catrandom:
On the theory that with wire copy zipping around and typesetting on the fly, it would be easy for the "not" in a "not guilty" plea to be inadvertently dropped, AP for decades said writers and editors should say accused folks pled "innocent."<hr></blockquote>A far larger Oregon paper than mine recently reported that someone was found guilty by reason of insanity.

Rio · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:39 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catrandom:
Newbie leaping in: On the theory that with wire copy zipping around and typesetting on the fly, it would be easy for the "not" in a "not guilty" plea to be inadvertently dropped, AP for decades said writers and editors should say accused folks pled "innocent." In other words, we were to make a deliberate error so a theoretical error could be avoided. AP has, as blanp notes, come to its senses at last.<hr></blockquote>As one who also was told eons ago to always replace "not guilty" with "innocent" (and later told at another paper to forget that rule), I too am glad that AP has come to its senses.But I'm still wondering where you see this change.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:41 am

A schizophrenic man will be committed to the Oregon State Hospital in Salem, after being found guilty by reason of insanity in the April murder of his mother.Twenty-two-year-old John Carl Olson II will spend the rest of his life under the supervision of the psychiatric security review board, which supervises about 650 mentally ill crminals around the state. (AP)***It's impossible to tell what the error was. Oregon has the puzzling "guilty except for insanity" defense. If he was found not guilty by reason of insanity, one would presume that he could get out after he's "cured." Is Oregon law different?***

vtuss · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:54 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
But I'm still wondering where you see this change.<hr></blockquote>Yes, I just cracked open the 2003 AP stylebook, and it still has the same-old argument for innocent in lieu of not guilty. Where is the clarion call?

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:59 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
As one who also was told eons ago to always replace "not guilty" with "innocent" (and later told at another paper to forget that rule), I too am glad that AP has come to its senses.But I'm still wondering where you see this change.<hr></blockquote>I saw a mention in this story, linked from Romenesko. However, although the writer says the stylebook is "just out," it's been around since summer. I didn't look right away at the copy I bought a couple of months ago but now I see that "innocent" is, in fact, gone and listed on the deletions page. Not surprisingly, AP is not following its own stylebook (maybe no one noticed the change) with regard to "innocent," although the "Hollywood" dateline does seem to have disappeared.

ramblerdan · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:49 am

The "F" in "Bahai Faith" capitalized; "farmworker" closed but "hand-held" hyphenated; and "listserv" deleted? I never understand what the heck they're thinking. Guess I'll have to get a copy now.

Rio · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:22 pm

Ah, got it. Thanks, blanp. I was looking in the online stylebook for a reference to "innocent," and couldn't find it. Which isn't surprising, since it's no longer there!At our paper, we're using the online version exclusively, and I don't believe AP sent to its online-stylebook subscribers that list of updates. If it didn't, it should have.As an aside in response to ramblerdan's post above: I've often felt the same way myself. As luck would have it, several months ago I attended an Ohio ACES conference at which one of the speakers was Norm Goldstein, the stylebook editor. I asked him why the stylebook made so many pointless spelling exceptions to Webster's. His response was that AP uses several sources to determine the best spelling.Is that a good enough reason for adding needless complications to copy editors' lives? You be the judge.Another aside: AP already has changed changed/updated one of the new entries; "9-11" is now "9/11."[ November 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gary Kirchherr ]

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:44 pm

Someone really ought to ask why AP continues to ignore its own "style."

Oeditpus Rex · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:20 pm

I'm a bit confused. Can a defendant enter a plea other than "guilty" or "not guilty"? If not, why is this even an issue?I've never been a courts reporter, but I never heard of anyone literally pleading innocent.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:49 pm

I asked Norman Goldstein, editor of the AP Stylebook, why AP continues to employ the incorrect "innocent" usage, and whether online stylebook subscribers received a list of changes in the 38th edition, as is included in the printed stylebook. He replied:Second question first: It is true that we did not send an e-mail notice to online subscribers about the deletion of the "innocent" entry in the AP Stylebook. We do not do that with every change, though, in hindsight, we probably should have in this case. We have had other questions about it, and will probably clarify it by a new entry that will explain the reasoning -- at which time we will send an e-mail alert to online subscribers.
That probably answers your first question, too: It just hasn't been noted by AP staff, either.

catrandom · **Posted:** Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:11 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Oeditpus Rex:
I'm a bit confused. Can a defendant enter a plea other than "guilty" or "not guilty"? If not, why is this even an issue?I've never been a courts reporter, but I never heard of anyone literally pleading innocent.<hr></blockquote>Quite right; a defendant cannot plead innocent. The course AP formerly recommended was an intentional error. Silly and not really defensible, but that's the case.

Rio · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:04 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by catrandom:
Quite right; a defendant cannot plead innocent. The course AP formerly recommended was an intentional error. Silly and not really defensible, but that's the case.<hr></blockquote>The only reason AP said to use "innocent" instead of "not guilty" was in case the "not" was accidentally dropped. As others have noted, the fact that "innocent" and "not guilty" don't mean the same thing was conveniently overlooked.And to answer another question, yes, you can plead something other than "guilty" and "not guilty." "No contest" and the various insanity variants of "not guilty" come to mind.

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:26 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
The only reason AP said to use "innocent" instead of "not guilty" was in case the "not" was accidentally dropped. As others have noted, the fact that "innocent" and "not guilty" don't mean the same thing was conveniently overlooked.<hr></blockquote>I agree with the change, because in our legal system people plead or are found "not guilty" rather than "innocent." But it also embraces the principle "innocent until proven guilty," so a person who has not been found guilty is in fact "innocent" in the eyes of the law. To play devil's advocate, in what sense does "innocent" differ from "not guilty" in the legal context? It's easy to imagine a legal system in which defendants pleaded "innocent" rather than "not guilty." I assume you would not object to use of the word in that case.

Rio · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2003 12:55 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by ADKbrown:
To play devil's advocate, in what sense does "innocent" differ from "not guilty" in the legal context?<hr></blockquote>This answer may sound simplistic, but "innocent" means the accused didn't do it, while "not guilty" means there isn't enough evidence to convict the accused beyond a reasonable doubt.

ADKbrown · **Posted:** Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:36 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
This answer may sound simplistic, but "innocent" means the accused didn't do it, while "not guilty" means there isn't enough evidence to convict the accused beyond a reasonable doubt.<hr></blockquote>I understand that a "not guilty" verdict does not guarantee that the defendant did not commit the crime. He may have done the crime, but there is a lack of evidence to prove it. Or the jury may have made a mistake. (O.J. comes to mind.) But for better or worse, if the jury renders a verdict of not guilty, he is innocent in the eyes of the law.
But I won't argue the point, because I agree with the change. I do wonder if it's OK to use "exonerate" and its synonyms if we insist that someone who is acquitted is not necessarily innocent.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:04 pm

MODESTO, Calif. (AP) - Scott Peterson pleaded innocent Wednesday to charges of murdering his wife, Laci, and their unborn son.***I guess Norm hasn't sent the memo yet.***

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