So I want to become a better copy editor ...

onelaneroad · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:04 pm

What should I be doing? I'm not awful now, but there are times when I go back over text the following day (I'm an editorial intern for a magazine, so I have that luxury on occasion) and find things I missed, which irritates me.
I read just about everything I can get my hands on, but sometimes obvious things slip by. I know no one is perfect, but any tips you all have on how to become a better copy editor would be greatly appreciated!
Also, something else I've been wanting to ask -- What skills/knowledge would you expect in an applicant for an entry-level copy editing position at a newspaper? (Magazine folks are welcome to reply as well, but since the majority of the posters here seem to be newspaper people, I figured I'd address them.)
Thanks!

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:14 pm

there are times when I go back over text the following day (I'm an editorial intern for a magazine, so I have that luxury on occasion) and find things I missed, which irritates me.May that always be so. Self-criticism without despondency inculcates excellence and keeps the ink in your veins.

skizmit · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:17 am

Experience in pagination -- especially with QuarkXPress -- and an eye for design are almost essential, as most newspaper copy editors today are expected to design pages as well as ensure clean copy. Experience with Adobe Photoshop/Illustrator/Freehand is usually a bonus, too.[ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: skizmit ]

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:50 am

Skiz is right, unfortunately.Due to staffing concerns, most newspapers force bad word editors who should be doing layout to edit stories, and bad layout editors who should be editing to do layout.It's a damned shame.

aneye4detail · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:49 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
Skiz is right, unfortunately.Due to staffing concerns, most newspapers force bad word editors who should be doing layout to edit stories, and bad layout editors who should be editing to do layout.It's a damned shame.<hr></blockquote>Yes it is. In my case, I'm a great word editor who hates having to do layout. But I have to do it. But I just take it as a compliment on my competence. They do not have the layout people do word editing or even one bit of typing because of their incompetence in that area. If there is even a headline to type in, they give it to me and then back to layout for pictures and stuff.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:07 am

I disagree.If you want to be a copy editor, be a copy editor. If you want to do layout, do layout. If you want to be exploited, learn a little of both. It doesn't hurt to know both, but it's not essential. It's not so hard to find newspapers that keep those roles separate. Meanwhile, work on your concentration skills.

Rio · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:40 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
I disagree.If you want to be a copy editor, be a copy editor. If you want to do layout, do layout. If you want to be exploited, learn a little of both. It doesn't hurt to know both, but it's not essential.<hr></blockquote>I couldn't disagree more.The original question was, "What skills/knowledge would you expect in an applicant for an entry-level copy editing position at a newspaper?" For an entry-level copy editor, knowing how to do layout is essential.Requiring copy editors to deal with layout isn't the ideal, but it's the reality. An entry-level copy editor who is clueless about layout basics and how to work in Quark will go nowhere fast in the newspaper business.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:55 pm

That's just not true. Many of us on this board are pure copy editors and don't do layout. I've hired a bunch of people at two newspapers, and I never once cared whether the copy editor candidates could design a page. If you want to be a successful copy editor, learn how to copy edit.

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:49 pm

I have observed a decreasing expectation for cross-training of young copy editors and designers.When I started in this business, copy editors did layout. There was no such thing as a designer. An entry-level copy editor would get a firm grasp of word editing before adding layout responsibilities. Not many copy editors averted layout duties. Most enjoyed the creative opportunity and variety.That was with paper dummies. In the past few years, with the arrival of increasingly complex pagination systems, specialization has taken hold. Designers with no news background are hired right out of school, which is often detrimental to newspaper quality.Iâ€™ve seen an ever-growing wall between copy editing and design duties. It could be that an aberration from the industry trend is taking place at some smaller papers, but I havenâ€™t seen it. If youâ€™re a very good pure copy editor, and thatâ€™s what you want to do, the opportunity is out there.[ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: SeaRaven ]

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:41 pm

A bit of background before I put my two cents' worth in.
I have always worked in the tabloid format, for a range of papers that sell for as low as 6o cents and as high as $7.50.
Knowing about language, design and news values are all regarded as fundamentals of the trade.
The broad-based approach allows you to write the headline to suit the layout or do the layout around the headline.
This enables one to produce papers that don't bore the reader to death, even if the art direction one is working with is strict.
Doing both is not being exploited, it's liberating.[ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: Paul Wiggins ]

Rio · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:53 pm

JJ and SeaRaven:OK. OK. Both you guys are on the level, so I'll partially recant my insistence that layout is essential. Believe me, I would like to think that copy editors now can copy edit and not spend time puttering around with layout computer applications.I do find it an ironic development, however. When computer pagination first came on the scene, newspaper suits touted how "efficient" it was to have copy editors lay out their own pages instead of passing along the job to paste-up people. But if I understand you correctly, newspapers now are simply moving to a high-tech version of paste-up people.Aside to onelaneroad: Even if the copy-editing, no-layout jobs are there for you, at least get a rudimentary understanding of layout theory and Quark anyway. Speaking from experience, such knowledge makes you a more valuable commodity in the copy-editing job market.

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:59 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
Even if the copy-editing, no-layout jobs are there for you, at least get a rudimentary understanding of layout theory and Quark anyway. Speaking from experience, such knowledge makes you a more valuable commodity in the copy-editing job market.<hr></blockquote>Agreed. Hope it didn't sound as though we were picking on you, Gary. Just offering perspectives.

Rio · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:33 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by SeaRaven:
Agreed. Hope it didn't sound as though we were picking on you, Gary. Just offering perspectives.<hr></blockquote>No problem; I didn't take it that way at all. I appreciate getting other perspectives. That's why we're all here, right? :>

onelaneroad · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:46 pm

I don't remember running across any job ads for a copy editor that didn't mention at least basic layout skills, which I have, but that's definitely something I could stand to work on.
I've seen ads that put the emphasis on the "dynamic page design" and "compelling layout," and then I've seen the "wordsmith required" and "grammar maven" ones. I would think being a good copy editor would be more important, because mistakes can take a lot away from a well-designed page. Just my $.02.
Also, how many of you use perfect grammar and punctuation when you post to an online BB such as this one?[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: onelaneroad ]

SeaRaven · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:09 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Also, how many of you use perfect grammar and punctuation when you post to an online BB such as this one?
<hr></blockquote>1. There's no such thing as perfect grammar and punctuation. There are varying degrees of consensus on what is "correct," but there is no comprehensive set of absolute truths to enforce.2. I generally use my blue jeans English in these discussions.[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: SeaRaven ]

aneye4detail · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:44 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by onelaneroad:

Also, how many of you use perfect grammar and punctuation when you post to an online BB such as this one?[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: onelaneroad ]<hr></blockquote>I try as hard as possible. I get really nervous and even use the dictionary sometimes.

Jackie · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:08 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by onelaneroad:
Also, how many of you use perfect grammar and punctuation when you post to an online BB such as this one?[ November 06, 2003: Message edited by: onelaneroad ]<hr></blockquote>If anyone jumps your grammar, punctuation, style, etc., they have way too much time on their hands.

Gatekeeper · **Posted:** Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:29 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by onelaneroad:
Also, how many of you use perfect grammar and punctuation when you post to an online BB such as this one?<hr></blockquote>Not intentionally, although I've been known to, uh, correct spelling, spacing and punctuation errors on other forums when I've hit the "reply with quote" option.Gatekeeper-30-

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