Can newspaper copy editors have lives outside of work?

wordygurdy · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:05 pm

Hi everyone.I am a magazine copy editor in a major metro area who has aspirations to write about sports. Magazine copy editors are pigeonholed as detail-oriented people who cannot see the metaphoric forest for the trees and therefore are rarely if ever given opportunities to line edit or, heaven forbid, write.I have been thinking about trying to land a gig at a newspaper--whether it be on the features, news or sports desk--and then volunteering for writing assignments at that paper to see if I can cut it.But as someone in my mid-30s who would eventually like to be married, I am wary of the night hours that a job on the news or sports desk would entail and how those hours would affect my social life. (My current job requires me to work days and portions of some nights, while I have others off entirely.) I also realize that if I were to land a full-time sportswriting job, those hours would by necessity preclude a social life, given that most sports are played at night and on weekends.Are night and weekend hours a big sore point among newspaper copy editors? Have any of you ever considered leaving your jobs because of the hours? I have noticed that nearly every newspaper-copy-editor job posting I've seen mentions "night and weekend work required," so one could reasonably infer that the hours have been a common reason why the previous job holder left the position.Thanks for any input you can provide.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:05 pm

I have never understood copy editors who complain about working nights. Most of our newspapers come out in the morning. Unless you're working at night, you're not working with "news," and if you're not working with "news," you might as well work for a magazine. This is not to take anything from the hardworking editors of features sections, but their work is one step removed from the immediacy that makes newspaper work most rewarding.Social life? From what I can tell, "social life" is vastly overrated.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 6:39 pm

I haven't owned an alarm clock in many years. How the hell can anyone argue with that?

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:37 pm

Some people consider working nights and weekends a sacrifice. That is, it's a choice with drawbacks.Yes, if you work as a copy editor at an a.m. paper on non-features sections, expect to work nights and weekends. This will continue until, perhaps, you accumulate enough seniority or brown-nosing points to escape if you want to. Going into management doesn't guarantee dayside hours.Aside from fulfilling an urge to work on breaking news, night-and-weekend schedules do have advantages, including:
1. Fewer bosses around while you work.
2. Your commute will probably be easier, unless you want to use mass transit, which will probably shut down before you get off work, or if driving at bars' closing times makes you nervous. Or if you fear getting assaulted in the dark.
3. Lots of time to work on your tan.
4. Lots of time to run errands to daytime-only businesses.
5. When the cable company says it'll send someone between 9 and 5, you just tell them to knock loudly.
6. Shorter lines at the 24-hour supermarket and drugstore -- if you can find a cashier and the cash registers aren't down for the nightly download.
7. Flexibility in child-rearing -- if two parents work different shifts, one will usually be home or available to run child-related errands.
8. You won't have to set your VCR to watch your daytime "shows."
9. The Internet usually runs its fastest after you get home from work in early morning.
10. You'll save money by using natural light at home instead of pesky, expensive light bulbs and electricity.
11. You'll save money you would have wasted on having a social life and all that goes with it.
10. You say you're thinking of looking for Ms. Right to marry? You have an advantage in pursuing night-shift nurses, cops, waitresses and cashiers. And copy editors, if that seems like a good idea.Take it from someone whose schedule is about to get even later after 24 years of working nights and weekends, most of them as a copy editor or designer at a.m. daily newspapers: Think hard about your priorities.
If you want to work on breaking news and maintain a social life, figure out if and how you can do both before taking the plunge. It's trickier for many newcomers than they expect.

RimRat · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:40 pm

How right you two are. I've worked the desk on all three shifts. The worst (from my point of view) was days, handling lifestyles, entertainment, op-ed and the like. Not that it's not important ... it's just boring compared to live news. Midnights was a world unto itself -- a dark satanic mill -- when this newspaper was still a PM. We're now AM, and like Bumfketeer, I no longer have need for an alarm clock, which I consider a huge asset to my sanity.It surely isn't the best way to have what may be considered a well-rounded social life ... but I'm not sure newspaper people HAVE well-rounded social lives. Or ought to have.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:44 pm

Are night and weekend hours a big sore point among newspaper copy editors?They are for many.Have any of you ever considered leaving your jobs because of the hours?It's been a factor in my leaving jobs, but always with the complication of others being shown favoritism.I have noticed that nearly every newspaper-copy-editor job posting I've seen mentions "night and weekend work required," so one could reasonably infer that the hours have been a common reason why the previous job holder left the position.Yes, I could name many copy editors who left the business primarily for that reason.It's not for everyone. If you don't enjoy the work, you can end up resenting it.[ November 03, 2003: Message edited by: Wayne Countryman ]

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:56 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by RimRat:

It surely isn't the best way to have what may be considered a well-rounded social life ... but I'm not sure newspaper people HAVE well-rounded social lives. Or ought to have.<hr></blockquote>I've known many copy editors whose social lives became "well-rounded" once they quit the biz for daytime work. I don't see why copy editors shouldn't have "well-rounded social lives." Many have no social lives, which sets them apart from the readers they should serve. It takes an effort for night workers to have a "social life" that doesn't resemble a Bukowski plot.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Nov 03, 2003 10:36 pm

Yes, if you work as a copy editor at an a.m. paper on non-features sections, expect to work nights and weekends. This will continue until, perhaps, you accumulate enough seniority or brown-nosing points to escape if you want to.The fact is, though, that newspapers need their best copy editors working when the serious stuff comes in. (Millions of people work odd hours, so it's not like we're so different from Mr. & Ms. USA.)

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:27 am

I raised four kids, and most of it was spent as a nightside copy editor. A number of those years, I did it as a single parent. Now that was tricky.I could not deal with working on features stuff. Our briefly "universal" night desk did it for a while and it pissed off and burned out several people. Nothing like a 40-inch story comparing ironing board covers (this really happened) in the last half-hour of your shift.As far as lifestyles of the Nocturnal and Non-Famous, I second all of Wayne's comments.
.
I'll also add that I've never had trouble getting a tee time. Also, as stated, with the current "pod" concept it seems as if every single dayside serf has a personally assigned boss within five feet of them at every given moment. Seeing as that I consider myself competent enough and enough of a "self-starter" to get my work done without continuously whiffing the output of a boss' sweat glands, I prefer working when they are off creating problems somewhere else.

wordygurdy · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:31 am

Thanks to all for your replies. I appreciate the insight. It's extremely valuable to get the opinion of people who are experiencing this sort of schedule every day. Thanks, also, to anyone who might respond after I post this message.

aneye4detail · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:26 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:

Thanks, also, to anyone who might respond after I post this message.<hr></blockquote>I am a copy editor at a weekly where they just like to work into the wee hours for some reason. I work here because I love the flexibility and it fits in with my family obligations. (Don't have to pay for childcare)However, sometimes it sucks, because, like today, it is 2:30a and I'm still at work and I have to get up at 7:30a and take my daughter to school. And in order to get some REM sleep, I am going to take my son 20 miles away to the only available part-time daycare I know so I can sleep between about 10a and 2p. Then I have to pick her up from school. Well here comes the boss. Gotta go.

pampellfw · **Joined:** Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:01 am **Posts:** 38

Besides a social life, the bigger question is how one manages one's family life. If you find someone to marry, will he or she be working days? Will he or she agree to eat dinner alone every night (or with his or her friends, but without you)? If you have children, will you mind not being home to help with the homework and put them to bed? I'm oversimplifying, but it's an extra level of difficulty managing a family when one person works nights and weekends. It can be done, but it's tough.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:28 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by pampellfw:
Besides a social life, the bigger question is how one manages one's family life. If you find someone to marry, will he or she be working days? Will he or she agree to eat dinner alone every night (or with his or her friends, but without you)? If you have children, will you mind not being home to help with the homework and put them to bed? I'm oversimplifying, but it's an extra level of difficulty managing a family when one person works nights and weekends. It can be done, but it's tough.<hr></blockquote>Excellent points. I was thinking of family life as an aspect of social life, and it's the most important one.

RimRat · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 9:34 pm

Wayne Countryman:I was being facetious about not having a social life. I have a social life. Honest. I wouldn't lie.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Tue Nov 04, 2003 10:48 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by RimRat:
Wayne Countryman:I was being facetious about not having a social life. I have a social life. Honest. I wouldn't lie.<hr></blockquote>I believe you. Sometimes the obvious eludes me.

tommangan · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:12 am

Hey blanp: I can tell you've never the worked features desk, elsewise you'd know there's every bit as much deadline pressure, because everybody puts stuff off till the last minute, stories get changed at the last minute, famous people die at the last minute... etc. I don't feel I'm missing anything working in Features, except the terrible hours, the glass office types staring over my shoulder, and he said/she said bullshit masquerading as news. If people wanna give themselves ulcers chasing "live" news (which gives the "soft" departments a run for their money in disposability quotient on any given day), more power to 'em. I just wish they'd spare me the "newsier than thou" business.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:30 am

Well. No offense intended, of course.
When I refer to "features" in this context, I mean the cooking-and-sewing stuff, not anything that might break late.

aneye4detail · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:55 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by pampellfw:
I'm oversimplifying, but it's an extra level of difficulty managing a family when one person works nights and weekends. It can be done, but it's tough.<hr></blockquote>Yep, it is tough sometimes. And my case is a catch-22. All these years of opposite shifts has helped create the rift in our marriage, so I'm not that happy and I refuse to be unhappy at home and at work, so I stay where I am because I like my job a lot and I don't think I could be happy anywhere else, especially not 9-to-5. But maybe if I did work 9-to-5, the marriage would improve?
Don't mean to get totally into another realm of conversation here. I still get to put my kids to bed 3 times a week, or should I say, HAVE to put them to bed. It's not too enjoyable, as my daughter gives me a hard time, probably because she's seeking my attention because I'm not home enough, and so on and so on.......

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:59 am

At the risk of turning this place into a confessional, let me add that banker's hours won't help a foundering marriage any more than second shift will ruin a strong one.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:59 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
At the risk of turning this place into a confessional, let me add that banker's hours won't help a foundering marriage any more than second shift will ruin a strong one.<hr></blockquote>Amen to that.

tim · **Posted:** Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:25 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
I have been thinking about trying to land a gig at a newspaper--whether it be on the features, news or sports desk--and then volunteering for writing assignments at that paper to see if I can cut it.
<hr></blockquote>In my opinion, that would be the wrong direction to go, if you want to write about sports full time. Yes, people make the leap from the sports copy desk to sportswriting, but you're probably better off trying to land some stringing gigs, usually plentiful in the sports world. Call the sports editor at your local paper and tell him you'd like to do some stringing for him. (Don't waste time with pleasantries. Sports editors like to think they are among the busiest people on earth. Many are not far from it.) Once you've got some clips to show, then try for the full-time sportswriting slot. Maybe I'm just partial to this particular method, but it's how I got started. I parlayed a stringer job covering high school football into a part-time desk/writing job, then sportswriter, then assistant sports editor, at the same paper. I've also been in the position of hiring sportswriters, and I would view your copy editing experience as a plus, so long as you could prove your writing skills with clips.A few personal observations about the lifestyle: I have no stats to back it up, but it seems that the divorce rate among sportswriters is awfully high, worse than copy editors. Sports copy editors work nights and weekends, but at least their schedule is relatively stable. Sportswriters are often on the road and rarely know from week to week what hours they'll be working. Some good news (and I'll likely stir up some arguments with this), the higher up the food chain you go, the less stressful the hours are for sportswriters (although you could face greater stress from other factors). At some larger papers, sportswriters rarely show their faces in the newsroom, so if working in your undies is appealing to you go for it. The competition is stiff.As for me, my friends long ago got out of the habit of inviting me to do things on the weekend or at night, and I'm single at age 39 (perhaps due to factors not associated with my career choice).

wordygurdy · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:16 am

Thanks, Tim. I appreciate your insight and your tips. The fact that you would view my copyediting experience as a plus is encouraging. And I do have a journalism degree, so it's not as if I'm a neophyte to the field.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:50 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Tim Hathcock:

In my opinion, that would be the wrong direction to go, if you want to write about sports full time. Yes, people make the leap from the sports copy desk to sportswriting, but you're probably better off trying to land some stringing gigs, usually plentiful in the sports world. <hr></blockquote>I've never worked on a sports desk, but from what i've seen across the aisle, this seems true. It's also true for non-sports departments. It's easier to find writers than deskers. Many papers are reluctant to let copy editors leave the desk to write. I've seen colleagues quit over this in previous jobs.

SusanV · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:09 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:
The fact that you would view my copyediting experience as a plus is encouraging. And I do have a journalism degree, so it's not as if I'm a neophyte to the field.<hr></blockquote> Others may and probably do disagree with me on this, but a J-degree wouldn't tip the scales in your favor if I were hiring. Stringing will definitely serve you well.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:49 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by SusanV:
Others may and probably do disagree with me on this, but a J-degree wouldn't tip the scales in your favor if I were hiring. Stringing will definitely serve you well.<hr></blockquote>Some people might hold a J-degree against you. Some people looking for writers might hold copy desk experience against you.Everyone wants to see good writing clips.

snoopyr13 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:38 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by wordygurdy:

Magazine copy editors are pigeonholed as detail-oriented people who cannot see the metaphoric forest for the trees and therefore are rarely if ever given opportunities to line edit or, heaven forbid, write. .....But as someone in my mid-30s who would eventually like to be married, I am wary of the night hours that a job on the news or sports desk would entail and how those hours would affect my social life.Are night and weekend hours a big sore point among newspaper copy editors? Have any of you ever considered leaving your jobs because of the hours?<hr></blockquote>As a copy editor at a daily newspaper, I am indeed forever glued to my chair on the copy desk. In general, I think copy editors are seen as detail-oriented and nitpicky; it comes with the territory.I'm in my mid-20s and am not married. Of the 10 of us on the desk, two are married and one of those was a reporter before he got married. It is difficult to have a social life, as my friends are working when I'm off and having fun when I'm slaving away on the desk. Being able to run errands with ease is great, but coming home and being wide awake when everyone else is sleeping is not so great.I'm going to school during the day and on my days off. I have also done volunteer work during the day to fill my time, but you have to love your job to deal with the hours and the funky social life.If you want to write, I would try to be a stringer or do some enterprise stories. Volunteer to take on assignments during your days off. If you end up on a copy desk at a small paper somewhere, I would offer to write some stories. Some small papers need people to write, edit, and even take photos. As crazy as that sounds, that might be your best bet.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:53 pm

Everyone wants to see good writing clips. Yes, yes and yes.

Oeditpus Rex · **Posted:** Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:58 pm

I always preferred the sports desk, if only because of the hours... well, except when the Giants or A's were in the 14th inning and I wanted to go home. When I got moved to the dark side, my nocturnal brain missed the hours and the rest of me missed the kind of breaking news that doesn't generally come with daylight. Of course, this has its drawbacks. I was checking B1 early one morning before shipping it, and here came the AP alert: DiMaggio dead. Heavy sigh, tear down B1 and the jump.

Bolder1 · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:31 am

Frankly, if you are an outgoing person who likes to live like the vast majority of people do (work days, have off nights and weekends), then you will be frustrated with newspaper copy editing. For me, its the nights, not the weekends, that get me down.You will, however, probably like the work and your co-workers. If you have any aptitude at all, you'll find the work easy to do well and somewhat challenging to do exceptionally well. You can have a life outside of editing, depending on where you live and what you like to do. If you have an avocation (for me, surfing and bicycle racing) it can be a blessing to have a relatively secure job with decent pay that doesn't consume more than 8 hours a day. This has generally been my experience.I was able to move from editing to reporting at my last job only because of a fluke change in management. It can be done, certainly.

mslayter · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:06 am

I like the hours (generally 4-midnight), and I have a social life that makes most of my 9-5 friends' dizzy.Of course, I am in my mid-twenties and single, but I find plenty of time to socialize with my friends. It's not all bar/booze related either. For one, I get to see far more of the awesome free museum exhibits in D.C. than my friends with day jobs, and I still catch all the rock shows I want to see. My best friend, who lives with me, works as a sous chef, which means she also has night hours, so it's not like I'm puttering around alone.I really, really like not having to wake up to an alarm clock in the mornings.

vsafuto · **Posted:** Sun Nov 30, 2003 12:48 pm

I know what you mean about features. My paper dumped its features copy desk (got the one remaining copy editor to retire) and moved the whole shebang to the "universal" desk. Since then, most of the copy desk has moved on to other papers, without being replaced.The best part was when they tried to also merge the sports desk with news, and sports tried to take over the entire desk. In fact, it triggered a turf war because the sports editor would have a fit if he caught you doing any features work while on deadline. Eventually, they reversed course by having another paper in the cluster do sports.We try to do features first, though holiday weekends are a killer since we have to do seven or eight sections in advance and have to arrive very early to meet deadlines, then do our A section. I stagger out of work half-blind on those nights.Personally, I despise everything about features. I wish we had comparisons of ironing board covers. Most of our feature stories are about has-been entertainers coming to town with an orchestra to "karaoke" their hit songs from decades ago. Oh, and we have to edit raw copy from "local columnists" who don't use punctuation. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
I raised four kids, and most of it was spent as a nightside copy editor. A number of those years, I did it as a single parent. Now that was tricky.I could not deal with working on features stuff. Our briefly "universal" night desk did it for a while and it pissed off and burned out several people. Nothing like a 40-inch story comparing ironing board covers (this really happened) in the last half-hour of your shift.As far as lifestyles of the Nocturnal and Non-Famous, I second all of Wayne's comments.
.
I'll also add that I've never had trouble getting a tee time. Also, as stated, with the current "pod" concept it seems as if every single dayside serf has a personally assigned boss within five feet of them at every given moment. Seeing as that I consider myself competent enough and enough of a "self-starter" to get my work done without continuously whiffing the output of a boss' sweat glands, I prefer working when they are off creating problems somewhere else.<hr></blockquote>

jpeppas · **Posted:** Mon Dec 01, 2003 4:39 am

Working weird hours has some advantages.
One, you can always get out of some crap you don't want to go to by saying that you have to work.
This works really well for the wedding you don't want to attend.
I haven't woken up to an alarm clock on a regular basis for the last five years. In fact, I don't even own an alarm clock. If for some strange reason I need to get up early, I use the alarm on my cell phone.
If the town you live in has a decent social scene, you can manage. Plus if the people you work with are like-minded and close to the same age, you'll have some people to hang out with. You may even become friendly with the local TV types and have more people to hang out with. You also make friends with all the bartenders and wait staff, which expands the dating pool considerably.
The sucky part is you can't always get the days off you want. People â€” your mom â€” will call you at 9:30 a.m. and berate you for an hour on why you aren't up yet. If you meet someone with regular hours and want to date, don't bother. It won't work.

mslayter · **Posted:** Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:37 pm

Why not? I date people with day hours. Those two nights off each week come in pretty handy for that purpose. The one thing that bothers me is that I would like to have a child sometime in the next few years. However, finding daycare for my hours (usually 4-midnight) is pretty much impossible.

wordygurdy · **Posted:** Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:06 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zenobia:
[QB]Why not? I date people with day hours. Those two nights off each week come in pretty handy for that purpose. Zenobia, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or serious. Do you have midweek days off? And if that's the case, the fact that you work Friday and Saturday nights--thus eliminating those two nights plus most of the daytime on Saturday as socializing times--hasn't hindered your dating life?I find that hard to believe, but that's great for you.

mslayter · **Posted:** Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:29 pm

I'm not being sarcastic. My days off fall midweek, usually Tuesday and Wednesday. Those nights are generally spent having dinner or seeing movies with my friends who work day jobs, including people I'm dating. Seeing someone two to three times a week is enough for me, even in a serious relationship. If they need to see me more than that ... well, the relationship is not going to work for reasons other than my night hours.On the weekends ... Friday, I work till 11:30, when I usually join my friends out for drinks or a midnight movie or go to parties or shows. On Saturday, I work a quasi-day shift, noon to 7:30. Another chance to go out early. I know plenty of people complain about the hours, but they suit me fine.

Pam · **Posted:** Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:33 pm

Zenobia wrote:
The one thing that bothers me is that I would like to have a child sometime in the next few years. However, finding daycare for my hours (usually 4-midnight) is pretty much impossible. Not so much anymore. Finding ANY high-quality, affordable, convenient child care is a huge struggle. But increasingly, 24-hour facilities are becoming, if not common, at least not so rare. It was even a White House initiative awhile back. Look in neighborhoods around big around-the-clock employeers

wordygurdy · **Posted:** Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:37 pm

Well, I admit your Saturday schedule doesn't sound *too* bad. In fact, if I had to work Saturdays at a paper, I would probably prefer a schedule like that.

mslayter · **Posted:** Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:14 pm

I still rarely ever meet up with anyone before midnight, though, even on Saturday. This is just my weird night owl nature, though.

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