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 Post subject: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:06 pm 
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... but the more I thought about it, the more I liked this photo caption hed. It accompanied a photo of a coyote that was stranded on some ice in Lake Michigan, and dozens of rescuers were dispatched to do *something* about the situation. (I swear, this coyote, which eventually swam away, got more coverage than that fatal-but-nonetheless-out-of-town love triangle that has crept into our news section & shacked up there with Phil Spector.) It's necessary to know that there's some weird, institutionalized music group here called Poi Dog Pondering.<p>OK, after all that, here it is: <p>COY DOG WANDERING


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:31 pm 
I speak to this as a Poi Dog Pondering fan ... but that photo kicker is just too obscure for your readers, 99.6 percent of whom probably have never even HEARD of Poi Dog Pondering. I'm all for quality wordplay, but the most effective kind is thaat which lets the readers in on the joke as well. Otherwise it's just copy geeks chortling amongst themselves in print, which isn't why we do what we do. Try giving the readers your pulling touch ....


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:14 pm 
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oh be quiet<p>i'm sure it worked in chicago


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:16 am 
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No, it didn't work in Chicago.<p>Sorry.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:40 am 
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In the outer burbs here and in upstate New York, you now and then hear about "coy dogs," a coyote-dog cross. I thought it had something to do with that.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:15 am 
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Wordplay on band names winds up being generational and exclusionary.<p>This hed would have totally puzzled me (I'm 49). You don't want to puzzle readers.<p>Example: Another paper I worked for once ran a photo of a bunch of tie-dyers walking down a long road toward an arena. The hed over the photo, unfortunately, was "Like the doo-dah man."<p>I am an old Deadhead and certainly got it. Many, many readers must have been absolutely flummoxed.<p>[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Bumfketeer ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:33 pm 
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Monsieur Thomsen: You live closer to that dead, unidentified dog in Wenatchee than you do to Chicago, yet you have heard of Poi Dog Pondering... and still you would somehow surmise that a mere .04 percent of Chicagoans share your knowledge of what is, as I said, a musical institution here? Thanks, though, for the lecture on what our mission is as journalists.<p>I question also Monsieur Bumf's flat denial that the hedline worked in Chicago. Do you mean that it did not work for you, personally, in Whattheflit? Or you did some cold-calling & found that it truly went over the heads of readers here? Some facts to support your position, please. I did some polling on my way home last night, asking for reaction from the following: 3 co-workers, a random cute guy in a coffee shop by the train station, the guy sitting next to me on the ride home, the young woman who lives with me, my lawyer, a neighbor & my handyman. These covered several races & ages 23 to 55. With the exception of my handyman, who didn't know what I was talking about, they all got it. And smiled.<p>As for those 49-ish Chicagoans who read newspapers yet remain clueless about long-running local cultural gigs that get regularly reviewed, I surmise that the words "coy" and "dog" and "wandering" beneath the picture of a coyote on an ice floe would have been easily recognizable.<p>So. It worked in Chicago.<p>And now that I've wasted a whole 6 minutes typing out my passions, or at least my opinions, I'm taking the rest of the day off from newspapering. It's Saturday. I have a poker party to prepare for. "Coy dog laundering..."


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:05 pm 
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Well, we can agree to disagree on this one, Catwoman.<p>I am sure there are many, many people in Chicagoland who don't know this band and read your paper. I'm just opposed to writing heds that some people won't get. <p>Think about it: You never heard of the band. You see a photo with "Coy Dog Wandering" as the hed. Aren't you going to wonder what the hell it means? A pun should work both ways, if this is indeed a pun. It doesn't. How do you know the dog was coy? Was it wandering? <p>And what about my former colleague Pete Zicari, who points out another reason (actual "coy dogs") it could confuse people? (We used to claim we were going to have a 5K race in which participants had to carry pizzas, and that it would be called the annual Pete Zicari Pizza Carry. But that's beside the point; see Blanp's musings on messing with names...)


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:05 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Bumfketeer:
Wordplay on band names winds up being generational and exclusionary.<p>This hed would have totally puzzled me (I'm 49). You don't want to puzzle readers.<p>[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: Bumfketeer ]<hr></blockquote>
And I'm also 49 and would have gotten it. Generational has nothing to do with it!<p>There's a fine line between clever and obscure, but I'm afraid it's one we'll never all be able to agree on. If only because we have different knowledge bases from which to draw on.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 5:27 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SusanV:

There's a fine line between clever and obscure, but I'm afraid it's one we'll never all be able to agree on. If only because we have different knowledge bases from which to draw on.
<hr></blockquote><p>Just as readers have different knowledge bases.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:04 pm 
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I'm 22, couldn't name one of the band's songs and have still heard the name. Yes, it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the hed.<p>How about this angle: Running a standalone photo is a nice thought and all, but making a copy editor write a headline for a photo is counter to both the job of the photo and the job of the editor.<p>Headlines are there to sum up a story to help a reader decide if he or she wants to read the story. If the photo itself is the story (save for the caption), the photo tells them plenty, and then the caption fills in the rest. There's no need to headline a standalone photo because the photo can say more than the hed can.<p>Consequently, when you have a picture of people in a snowball fight or walking on the beach, asking me to write a headline is asking me to interpret something that isn't there or to state the obvious. It would be foolish to write "People walk on the beach" above such a picture. Thus, I'm left trying to write something cute or funny because there's nothing to say about the photo. <p>You might as well appeal to niche audiences when there isn't a broad joke because then at least someone gets something out of your futile exercise. You can pick up other niches when the next pretty photo comes across your desk.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:31 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 4Jfan:

You might as well appeal to niche audiences when there isn't a broad joke because then at least someone gets something out of your futile exercise. You can pick up other niches when the next pretty photo comes across your desk.
<hr></blockquote><p>I'm 46, have heard of the band and of the canine and of the food.<p>Writing a hed for a niche audience, without context, leaves other niches to say "What the ----?!?" Which at best detracts from the photo.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:55 pm 
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the headline works in chicago. the band's been playing that city for 20 years, and even if they annoy or bore the hell out of you (like they did me) most people who pay attention to popular culture have a passing knowledge of them or would catch the cadence of the words.<p>even if you don't know the band, and you don't get the word play, you understand the three simple words "coy dog wandering," for god sakes, and you can see the photo right in front of yer face.<p>the overline wasn't written in Bumfuck, N.Y., or Hello, Cleveland. and it wasn't a play on someone's name (it's a band name), and it doesn't have to translate literally, and you don't have to interview the dog and get his age and middle initial and ask him whether he's coy or not.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:00 pm 
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As you can see, I'm staying out of this.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:13 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Wayne Countryman:
<p>Writing a hed for a niche audience, without context, leaves other niches to say "What the ----?!?" Which at best detracts from the photo.<hr></blockquote><p>I should have been more clear. I didn't mean it's OK to write for a niche in that the hed would be quizzical to other groups on its face. If you're going to write a joke, pun, pop culture hed for a standalone it should make sense on its own. <p>But in the coy dog example, just because everyone in the world won't get the punchline doesn't mean you shouldn't tell the joke. It stands on its own merit and gets extra points if you get the joke. <p>You'll rarely find a fun hed that everyone can be in on (let alone an original one, as blanp would point out the day of print). But as a reader, I would rather see the paper have some fun with something as useless as a hed over a standalone than put "Dog swims off ice" because my grandma won't get the "Coy dog wandering" hed. <p>If the gag works both ways, at worst it can be as bland as any other hed in such circumstances, and at best it can give the reader a chuckle and make him or her give the rest of the paper a second glance.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2003 10:24 pm 
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If I weren't staying out of this, I would point out that we are not gag writers and, in any event, there is nothing funny about a stranded animal that probably was freaked out because of all the attention it was getting.
I also might point out that stand-alone photos do more damage, bad headline-wise, than any other feature in a newspaper.<p>[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: blanp ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 12:23 am 
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I wondered when another old graybearded fart would pop in and save me.<p>Sorry, JJ, but I would have changed that hed in the slot. I would never be mistaken for an animal lover, but I agree with Phil's assessment that a terrified coyote on ice isn't something to be "cute" about. Even here in Bumfuck, where there's always a Code Orange Alert for bad wordplay in heds and all the state legislators are above average.<p>[ February 09, 2003: Message edited by: Bumfketeer ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:18 am 
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Originally posted by 4Jfan:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr> I'm 22, couldn't name one of the band's songs and have still heard the name. Yes, it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the hed. <hr></blockquote>
Maybe so, but this is coming from a self-professed collector of music. How many -- 300 hundred, was it? <p>Regardless, I appreciate the pun headline, though I agree with the "old farts," it shouldn't have made it past slot.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:50 am 
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um, how the hell do you know the coyote was terrified? the coyote might have been terrified, but he also jumped off the floe, swam the (alleged) 50 feet to shore, shook himself off, and skooted back into his urban hidey-hole. that was one coy damn coy-dog. is he now a coy dog pondering his brush with fame?<p>there is beauty & justice & sometimes terrible truth in what we do, but there is also room for lightheartedness.<p>i would demote any slot who, in chicago, dumbed down that cutline. there is absolutely no reason to have changed it, except to further demoralize the underappreciated copy editor who came up with it.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:01 am 
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and goddammit, bumfketeer, why are you sure that there are "many, many people in Chicagoland who don't know this band and read your paper"?<p>i wouldn't accept unsupported surmises from a writer, and i sure as hell ain't going to accept them from you. back up your assumption or back off. i mean it. it's not our place as editors to assume. that is the worst kind of elitism i can imagine. what the hell does "many, many" mean anyway? as other posts have noted, this particular hedline seems to have worked on enough levels that it deserved being run.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:14 am 
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and ANOTHER thing: phil, be as coy as you like... but what you're saying is that IF copy editors did their job better, then stand-alones wouldn't be such embarrassments? just because they're tricky doesn't mean you aim only for the lowest common denominator to avoid screwing up.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:39 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by catwoman:
and ANOTHER thing: phil, be as coy as you like... but what you're saying is that IF copy editors did their job better, then stand-alones wouldn't be such embarrassments? just because they're tricky doesn't mean you aim only for the lowest common denominator to avoid screwing up.<hr></blockquote><p>
Like I said, I'm staying out of this.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 5:29 am 
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"another old graybearded fart"<p>is this a credential or an excuse?


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 9:20 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by blanp:
... there is nothing funny about a stranded animal that probably was freaked out because of all the attention it was getting.<p>[ February 08, 2003: Message edited by: blanp ]<hr></blockquote><p>Someone give that poor coyote a cigarette.<p>[ February 09, 2003: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]</p>


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:05 pm 
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Whew! Now that's some testy debate. I saw the photo, loved the headline. A tip of my hat to the competition across Michigan Avenue. Well done.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 4:35 pm 
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The debate is a lot better than the hed.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:06 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by catwoman:<p>um, how the hell ..... <p>*edit*<p>and goddammit, <p>*edit*<p>and ANOTHER thing: <p>*edit*<p><hr></blockquote><p>When you started the thread, you should have specified that you only wanted to hear from people who agree with you. It would have saved a lot of trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:17 pm 
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chill out, fugitive<p>this was a spirited conversation. if you don't want to participate, find another one.<p>it just so happens that the folks who disagree with catwoman are wrong on this one. i can understand the frustration.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:56 pm 
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Orange alert always does this to me.


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 9:09 pm 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by catwoman:
"another old graybearded fart"<p>is this a credential or an excuse?<hr></blockquote><p>Both, of course...


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 Post subject: Re: ready to take it on the chin...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 2:41 am 
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<blockquote><font size="1" face="TImes, TimesNR, serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jjmoney62:
<p>Someone give that poor coyote a cigarette.<p>[ February 09, 2003: Message edited by: jjmoney62 ]<hr></blockquote><p>so sorry... i am FRESH out of food stamps. spent 'em on top ramen, corn nuts, donuts & creme soda.


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