OK, terrific

cobra_kai · **Posted:** Mon May 14, 2007 11:15 am

Lead Reporter, Regional News, from JJobs

Quote:

We want a reporter who spots meaningful stories and reports them in a compelling, multi-layered fashion. As lead reporter of the regional news team, you are the go-to person for big headlines. Here is a recent sampling: "Six legs and that's not all, this calf is male and female," "Talks lead to action for shrinking communities," "In fight with cancer, April has attitude up her sleeve."

At least we're not required to make them "sing."

Quote:

Show us you are a candidate with a sharp eye for detail, a knack for storytelling, and a desire to move the bar higher. Submit work samples, resume and 200-word essay explaining your philosophy on the Internet's role in news reporting...

I'd do that, but I'm too busy finishing my book report on "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" for Ms. Jones' English class.

trimtofit · **Posted:** Mon May 14, 2007 11:56 am

Make that A Tree ...

onceahack · **Posted:** Mon May 14, 2007 3:35 pm

trimtofit wrote:

Make that A Tree ...

No wonder cobra's still working on the book report... all these years, he's been reading the wrong book!

cobra_kai · **Posted:** Mon May 14, 2007 4:17 pm

There. Fixed. I guess this is an opportune time to stray off topic and mention that while I have a degree in literature, I read a total of two books while in college.

onceahack · **Posted:** Mon May 14, 2007 4:47 pm

While we're coming clean, I never took an English course of any type in college.

At a liberal arts school, where I would think it would be pretty hard to pull that off.

dangermike · **Posted:** Tue May 15, 2007 1:29 am

I graduated high school with no math credits.

And, really, when does math ever come in handy?

egable · **Joined:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:24 am **Posts:** 310

This may be a tangent, but do journalism programs require math and science courses?

And if they don't, why the heck not?

miss msry · **Posted:** Tue May 15, 2007 10:35 am

Por favor dude, that's why most of us got into Journalism. No Math. Although, the Univ. of Mo. did require a lab science course.

longwords · **Posted:** Tue May 15, 2007 6:31 pm

Back before I started working at a newspaper, an editor for a metropolitan daily in Ohio wrote a column -- intended to be hilarious -- about how he couldn't do the math in the test high school students were expected to pass to graduate.

My husband and I discussed that column several times over several weeks and concluded that we were unimpressed and unamused. We wondered why any editor would brag about his or her ignorance. Our opinion of that particular newspaper declined, in part because we began looking at articles more critically to see if the paper was making mistakes or poor choices in regard to coverage involving math and science. We noticed a lot of credulous coverage of fads in alternative medicine. We started picking apart the tax stories and business stories. We became annoyed about the amount our subscription cost.

Now that I work at a newspaper, I try not to underestimate the reader, but I try not be a snob, either.

If the majority of journalists are proud of their lack of mathematical skills, maybe the profession is suffering the wages of ignorance.

Editer · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 12:14 am

The ACES session in Miami on math in news stories was interesting and useful. I may post more about it when I'm not about to drop off to sleep.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 1:33 am

200-word essay explaining your philosophy on the Internet's role in news reporting...
It is whatever the boss tells me it is. (As you can see, I;ve never been well suited for academia.)

ndugan1 · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 1:42 am

egable wrote:

This may be a tangent, but do journalism programs require math and science courses?

And if they don't, why the heck not?

Mine did. Statistics and chemistry. Pretty basic, but that would fall under the knowing-something-about-everything category.

larepublica · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 10:01 am

longwords wrote:

If the majority of journalists are proud of their lack of mathematical skills, maybe the profession is suffering the wages of ignorance.

That fear/dread/ignorance of math is one of the things that has helped me earn more in business journalism. Some day, reporters will wake up to the fact that "boring" business journalism is the best way to earn a living wage (which will then send salaries lower). Look at the salary offerings on jjobs and then see what Dow, Bloomberg, Reuters/Thompson, Lloyds and others pay qualified people; it makes the "I don't do math" jokes look stupid.

Disclosure: I studied very little math beyond trigonometry, but have honed my skills since graduating college.

Vanderhoof Viking · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 11:24 am

dangermike wrote:

And, really, when does math ever come in handy?

Well, some years ago I was editing a story our city council reporter did about the new budget and noticed two things:
a) one table had the budget figures adding up to 110 per cent
b) one item he listed would have been 50 per cent of the budget for its department by itself. It wasn't. It was more like five per cent.
I think those are the kind of errors the people who read budget stories are going to pick up on.
Unfortunately, math errors are also frequently difficult to fix without having the original numbers. With most typographical errors, you can figure out what the reporter wanted to say. With math, a lot of the time you can't make a quick fix.

egable · **Joined:** Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:24 am **Posts:** 310

I hate to hear a reporter say "I became a writer so I wouldn't have to know math."

You're not just a writer; you're a reporter, dammit, and math is important. As is science -- I figure someone with a decent knowledge of science and a firm grounding in the scientific method is less likely to get hoodwinked by shysters.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 12:15 pm

From a testy middle-aged copy editor deficient in staying on topic:

To get my journalism degree almost three decades ago, I had to take a year of science (I chose biology), a semester of statistics, a year of literature, a year of economics, a year of American history (which I waived, so I took advanced courses) and, I think, a year of a foreign language (I waived the first semester of Spanish.)
Electives included algebra and a writing course in the English department. I chose each elective with my career in mind.

All of these courses have proved useful as a reporter and editor. The years I spent on the university newspaper were as valuable, though. So were the days and nights spent wandering through the museums, streets and halls of government in Washington.

[I'm not saying this is the only way to do it. It's what worked for me.]

I switched political science from my minor to a second major when I realized how often it abused the scientific method and that so many poli sci majors would end up as lawyers, bureaucrats and politicians of the sort I'd have to deal with on the job.

cobra_kai · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 12:39 pm

I'm guessing there's no hope of this thread getting back on topic, so I'll throw my two cents in.

I could care less about math courses in college (although I did take a statistics course that was somewhat useful). In fact, I could've done without college altogether. But it took one huge error on my part early in my career to realize the importance of math in our jobs. While not thinking about it hard enough, I was editing a piece on a tax hike in a local borough, which was determined to be 6 cents per $100 of assessed property value. Of course, I took this to mean a 6 percent tax hike. It was caught before it went to print, but the very next day I re-dedicated myself to learning whatever I could about math.

dangermike · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 1:34 pm

longwords wrote:

I try not be a snob

Try harder.

Look. Math is hard. And when I was in high school, the last thing on my mind was developing skills I'd need for a far-distant career. I have a difficult time with math. Am I "proud" of this? No. But I'm not ashamed of it, either. I also can't fix cars or build porches or perform surgery. What I am proud of, though, is that despite my deficiencies in math, I'm able to be quite good at my job. When math comes up, I'm extra careful. If it makes sense to me, then I'm comfortable it'll make sense to a reader. When it doesn't, I find someone in the newsroom who can help.

Of course math is important. That someone can even graduate high school without any math credits is kind of amazing. But there was college, then grad school. I'm still not good at math. My brain just doesn't seem to function that way. But when I can't figure something out, I can find someone who can. So before all you brainiacs get too self-righteous about it, step back and consider that very few people are good with words AND numbers. Newsrooms need a mix. And if you're equally outstanding with both, then you're a gem and should be praised and rewarded. There is a special place for you in copy editor heaven.

longwords wrote:

... maybe the profession is suffering the wages of ignorance.

Also, the profession is suffering because newspapers aren't adapting or thinking creatively. Not poor math.

Vanderhoof Viking · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 2:19 pm

Dangermike:
I think you've hit the most important aspect of the thing. When you don't know, ask.
To use an example I used in a previous post, if you're not comfortable with math, but the figures a reporter is using in a budget story aren't adding up, check with someone else. Ask the person at the next desk if they've got a second to check your addition. Maybe you made a mistake. I know I have.
But probably you didn't. You get that double-check from someone you trust more with numbers, you get the numbers right, you feel better about your ability to handle numbers and math.
It's a win-win situation {and, if you want, you get to laugh at the reporter for not checking the numbers himself. Not that I would even do such a thing :)}

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

I never liked math, because you couldn't blow off studying it and BS it on tests the next day. I learned just enough to graduate, which I'm thankful for, because I wouldn't have learned any if it were my choice. I love the Internet because there are all kinds of calculators on there.

Any reporter needs to check math in stories; whether he likes math is irrelevant. Why would you put your byline on something if you can't confirm it?

I agree with larepublica, business journalism is rich with opportunities. I'm glad I took lots of economics in J school. It's paid off for me careerwise.

longwords · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 8:30 pm

dangermike wrote:

longwords wrote:

I try not be a snob

Try harder.

Look. Math is hard. And when I was in high school, the last thing on my mind was developing skills I'd need for a far-distant career. I have a difficult time with math. Am I "proud" of this? No. But I'm not ashamed of it, either. ...

Of course math is important. ... So before all you brainiacs get too self-righteous about it, step back and consider that very few people are good with words AND numbers. Newsrooms need a mix. ...

longwords wrote:

... maybe the profession is suffering the wages of ignorance.

Also, the profession is suffering because newspapers aren't adapting or thinking creatively. Not poor math.

The remark about being a snob was taken out of context; I was referring to not underestimating readers or overestimating them (for instance, by assuming they should understand math well enough to not need an explanation of a complicated tax shift).

I provided two readers' reactions to an editor's braggadocio about his lack of mathematical ability. You aren't bragging -- you're seeing to it someone checks the work. At the paper we were reading, it became evident that not everyone was checking the work, and as readers we were offended.

Wayne Countryman · **Posted:** Wed May 16, 2007 10:42 pm

Vanderhoof Viking wrote:

Dangermike:
I think you've hit the most important aspect of the thing. When you don't know, ask.

Excellent point.
Learn enough about math to at least recognize problems.
Know how to figure percentages and ratios, tax rates and averages.

Or, make sure someone on your desk has the time and willingness to do it for you.

davidb666 · **Posted:** Mon May 21, 2007 12:57 pm

A couple of years ago, I (a math major who has worked as a reporter/editor in daily newspapers all my life) gave a one-hour seminar at the New England Press Association titled "Math for journalists." Most of it concerned how to calculate percentages, with a simple handout that you could tape to your monitor when doing budget stories.

It drew a total of seven people, one of whom had to be dragged in from the hall by a NEPA official who was embarrassed by the empty room. Nearby, a session titled "Semicolon: Friend or Foe?" was standing-room-only.*

I would feel bad, except I once exchanged email with John Paulos of "Innumeracy" fame concerning a math course he gave at a major journalism school (I forget which). He said turnout was minuscule.

*OK, so I made that title up ...

Editer · **Posted:** Mon May 21, 2007 6:31 pm

davidb666 wrote:

I would feel bad, except I once exchanged email with John Paulos of "Innumeracy" fame concerning a math course he gave at a major journalism school (I forget which). He said turnout was minuscule.

Paulos' book A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper should be required reading for all journalists.

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