Paid tryouts

Oeditpus Rex · **Posted:** Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:57 pm

Company: Peninsula Daily News
Position: Managing editor - news
Location: Washington St.
Job Status: Full-time
Salary: Not Specified
Ad Expires: February 9, 2005
Job ID: 397610
Website: http://peninsuladailynews.com

(snip)

Finalists will be invited to a week's paid tryout, with accommodations paid and transportation reimbursable upon hire.

I'm tempted to snark, "Gee, that's nice of them." But then, how many papers â€” particularly 18,000 circ papers â€” offer even that? (And it's not just for the ME job. I've seen them make the same offer for desk positions.)

EMorse · **Posted:** Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:03 pm

That's remarkable for a paper of that size. Back when I was interviewing at papers of similar size, I couldn't even get travel expenses covered (I once flew at my own expense from upstate New York to the Bay Area to interview at a small daily). I didn't get paid for a tryout until I got to my current level of employment (a large metro daily).

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:22 pm

I was paid for each of the four "tryouts" I have endured over the years. I can't imagine why anyone would agree to an "unpaid" tryout.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sat Jan 08, 2005 1:25 pm

Quote:

Company: Peninsula Daily News
Position: Managing editor - news
Location: Washington St.
Job Status: Full-time
Salary: Not Specified
Ad Expires: February 9, 2005
Job ID: 397610
Website: http://peninsuladailynews.com

Finalists will be invited to a week's paid tryout, with accommodations paid and transportation reimbursable upon hire.

How do you "try out" to be a managing editor?

EMorse · **Posted:** Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:15 pm

Phillip Blanchard wrote:

I was paid for each of the four "tryouts" I have endured over the years. I can't imagine why anyone would agree to an "unpaid" tryout.

I should have specified in my previous post that the tryout for my current job was the only one that involved anything more than a single-day interview/spelling test/editing test process. My current job's tryout involved a full week of actual copy-desk work, for which I was paid.

JonScribe · **Posted:** Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:11 pm

Phillip Blanchard wrote:

Quote:

Company: Peninsula Daily News
Position: Managing editor - news
Location: Washington St.
Job Status: Full-time
Salary: Not Specified
Ad Expires: February 9, 2005
Job ID: 397610
Website: http://peninsuladailynews.com

Finalists will be invited to a week's paid tryout, with accommodations paid and transportation reimbursable upon hire.

How do you "try out" to be a managing editor?

I imagine it involves a demonstration of basic dance steps, a prepared monologue and providing the pianist with music for your song.

Wabberjocky · **Posted:** Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:11 pm

Having worked for this paper and come to it via the paid tryout, I can say it's a pretty decent deal. They don't put you up in a great hotel, but the tryout gave me a good chance to size up the area, the paper and the cost of living. It's not a good paper, but for where I was at in my career at the time, it was a good enough for move until something better came along.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:23 pm

One gets the feeling, reading the district guide that a combination of the tyranny of distance and a glut of non-peak accommodation make the offer a standard sort of business decision. I'd be looking for a per diem as well.

Heartodixie · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:07 am

Does moonlighting at a paper for a month before joining full-time count as a paid tryout?

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

Port Angeles is a long haul from Seattle. I've heard they've hired people who didn't realize that. It looks close on a map, but it's not. They're smart to offer the tryout, because it doesn't pay to move someone from afar and then find that he wants to leave after a year. It costs them less to offer the tryout than not, in the long run. I know other small papers that do this, even for candidates right out of college.

When I offer tryouts, I also make sure candidates spend time looking around the city -- housing, schools or whatever. That's self-interest. If I hire someone and it turns out living here is not for him, I'm out up to 20k in moving expenses. And I've got to start candidate searching all over again, and then train anew.

Wabberjocky · **Posted:** Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:42 pm

Copynomad's right. On a map, Port Angeles looks deceptively close to Seattle. In reality, a winding highway, an occasionally shut-down bridge, more highway and a ferry trip across Puget Sound sit between PA and Seattle. You can make the trip in three hours if traffic is good, the bridge is open and you time the ferry just right.

And yes, some people have come to PA thinking they were on Seattle's doorstep. And some were not smart enough lose that illusion during their paid tryout.

J Kaufman · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:00 am

Quote:

I was paid for each of the four "tryouts" I have endured over the years. I can't imagine why anyone would agree to an "unpaid" tryout.

I've never not been paid for a tryout, and the double negative is there for emphasis: first of all, it's illegal NOT to pay for your time [at least in every state where I've worked]; second, any corporation that would try not to pay is not worth working for; third, you can and should negotiate payment for extra costs, such as lodging, meals, mileage, etc.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

J Kaufman wrote:

Quote:

... first of all, it's illegal NOT to pay for your time [at least in every state where I've worked]...

Can you clarify what you mean by this? I ask because I worked for a paper that would fly people in for tryouts and pay for all expenses but not pay for the time that someone spent interviewing or editing dummy copy -- they were unedited versions of stories that had previously run in the paper. When I ran it through the company lawyer and HR, they said we would not pay because of some union contract conflict, but that we had to make sure the person was not editing anything that was running in the paper. The editing was done for testing purposes only. If that's illegal, please let me know where I can find such a reference, and I will pass word to people at that paper.

jjmoney62 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:50 pm

I think you're bringing up the difference between a test and a tryout. In a tryout, the candidate works on real copy in real time -- essentially working for you -- in which case the candidate must be paid.

Companies get around that by just having someone use dummy copy. You are essentially testing them. Whether it's worth such machinations to save a few bucks is up to you.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I've been on trips called "tryouts," but have never worked live copy on any of those trips. So I don't think anyone would have been legally obliged to pay me, although they did.

For my purposes, I can't imagine ever letting a job candidate work on live copy. I want to see edits in real time, but that doesn't mean someone has to work on live copy. And for my purposes, it's not a matter of saving a few bucks. When someone is trying out, I still don't know whether he is qualified to edit live copy.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:49 pm

I edited live copy on each of the three "tryouts" I have endured over the years. (In Buffalo in 1986 I edited two page-one stories during a one-day "tryout.").

By the time someone made it to a "tryout" where I was slotting, how he or she did with live copy was the only outstanding question. I would never hire copy editors without seeing how they work for real.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

I agree about seeing edits in real time. But I don't want any candidates handling live copy. I have a set of stories -- staff written, un-copy edited and previously run -- that I've culled so I can see a range of editing. I picked the stories so I can see how an editor handles various problems and common errors, and see the person's range on hedlines -- hard news, features and such. The stories are all assigned to paginated pages, so the candidate has to write all the display type and edit as usual. The test is essentially timed, because I know how long it takes to get through the work, and I have the same set of stories from various candidates, so I can compare head to head. I think I'd sacrifice by having someone edit live stories, because I wouldn't get enough sense of range, depending on what runs on a given day, who wrote or assignment edited, and so on.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:24 pm

I acknowledge that there are many different practices. But that's not a tryout, that's a test.

Incidentally, a "tryout" mean a full workweek.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

I've heard "tryout" used to describe both scenarios. I give a test before narrowing down whom we bring to town to edit in real time. It's been years since my last tryout, but I remember now that I did edit live copy at one. I asked an assignment editor about a one-source story, and his defense was that it was written off a news release. That assignment editor is now one of the top editors at the WashPost. Sigh.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:57 pm

"Defense"!

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

Yeah, this was a very defensive guy. Like I said on another thread, the lame tend to be the most defensive. But I heard this guy also was very good at sucking up. Course he never sucked up to copy editors.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:00 pm

We don't necessarily give anyone who "stops by" for an interview a tryout. Our tryouts are generally a week long, and of course they are paid (this is a Guild shop, too).

Let's see....I was paid on tryouts in Syracuse, Milwaukee and Albany, and at the Bergen Record, which is the only one of the bunch I didn't stick with. I tried out with the Courier-Post in Camden, N.J.,. back in the '70s for one night and don't recall being paid for it.. At night's end I was sent back to the low minors for more seasoning.

Back in the day, I went to papers as a teenager and said I wanted to be a reporter and they said fine, cover a meeting and you get $10 or $15 plus about eight cents a mile. If they liked me, I'd go work there for a while until the next Dead tour would start.

Wait....I digress...
.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

Ha, that reminds me of getting a job as a stringer as a kid. I'd sent clips, then went to interview, spoke to the guy for about 20 minutes, then was sent on assignment that evening. When he gave me the assignment, it took me a few seconds to realize I was hired.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:07 pm

Yeah, those were the days. A lot less pomposity and a more newsgathering.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

I know. I'm smiling just remembering those days.

J Kaufman · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:39 pm

Quote:

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

1. If you are editing real copy or dummy copy, you are "working" -- you are "suffered or permitted to work by an employer," as New York state law puts it. [A job interview is not "work"; filling out an application is not work; perhaps even completing a [brief] "test" as part of the "application" is not work; but as soon as the employer, who is in the copy-handling business, hands you copy and says, "Here, edit this," that's work.] Any time spent training you is paid time, be it Mickey D's or the Wall Street Journal.

2. How much should you be paid? That depends. Some papers are governed by union contract; if not, they'll still have some guidelines for pay scales for different jobs [good luck trying to find 'em out] and you would be paid at the entry rate. You can't be paid less than your state's minimum wage. [And no allowances for meals or uniforms!] I do not think any of the exceptions to the minimum-wage laws [even those for professionals] apply. While some newspapers have been trying to get around the overtime laws, I haven't heard of any invoking the "working here is such a privilege you should try out for nothing" doctrine. Some papers also pay some of the costs of trying out but aren't obliged to do so.

3. Finally, as a matter of common sense: who would want to work for an employer who shafts the tryouts? Think what they'll do to you if you have the bad luck to become an employe!

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

Can you send me a reference that I could offer up? I can't tell that paper: Hey, I read this on an online forum. If that's just in New York, that won't apply to the paper I'm thinking of. I didn't do a tryout for that paper, but they never mistreated anyone that I could see. I told everyone to put in for OT when they did it, and I know other managers did likewise.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:57 pm

copynomad wrote:

His defense was that it was written off a news release. That assignment editor is now one of the top editors at the WashPost. Sigh.

That's a paddling.

J Kaufman · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:08 am

Quote:

Can you send me a reference that I could offer up?

I would go to the Web site for that state's Labor Department [or whatever title that state uses]. Look for links to FAQs, to state minimum-wage and overtime laws, etc. The laws may specifically not apply to, say, farm workers, baby sitters, civil servants, and "professionals," but they do apply to everyone else. Then quote the law back to them. They will assume you are about to file a complaint and should cough up some cash.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

Thanks, I'm friendly with folks back at that paper, so I'll give them the heads up. All the managers I worked with were decent people, not looking to exploit anyone. We went by what HR and the company lawyer said. We expected them to know their job.

Editer · **Posted:** Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:25 pm

J Kaufman wrote:

1. If you are editing real copy or dummy copy, you are "working" -- you are "suffered or permitted to work by an employer," as New York state law puts it. [A job interview is not "work"; filling out an application is not work; perhaps even completing a [brief] "test" as part of the "application" is not work; but as soon as the employer, who is in the copy-handling business, hands you copy and says, "Here, edit this," that's work.] Any time spent training you is paid time, be it Mickey D's or the Wall Street Journal.

If you're trying out by editing dummy copy, that's not work by any legal definition I can think of; the product of your exertions will not benefit the employer, i.e., it won't go in the paper. By your estimation, the test I had to take to even earn a tryout at a certain large Eastern newspaper should have been paid, because it wasn't "brief"; took me a week to complete it to my own satisfaction. But again, it wasn't live copy and didn't go into the paper.

I suspect there's a body of jurisprudence on this issue. I don't have time nor legal-research skills to dig it up right now.

paulwiggins · **Posted:** Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:23 am

Jurispudence is irrelevant. J Kaufman identifies the core point:

Finally, as a matter of common sense: who would want to work for an employer who shafts the tryouts? Think what they'll do to you if you have the bad luck to become an employee!

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

I've worked at papers that pay for tryouts and ones that don't, and I've been treated no better or worse at either kind. I expect my expenses to be paid, but if I'm not doing editing that runs in the paper, they're not getting free work from me.

McGarry · **Posted:** Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:42 pm

Parenthetically, my non-newspaper friends are always amazed when I tell them about our practice of "tryouts." I can't think of another industry that has them. You can get a job as a thoracic surgeon without a tryout, but not as a copy editor.

Bumfketeer · **Posted:** Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:18 pm

Getting back to one of Phillip's comments, I think a tryout is critical. We've had a few people come in for tryouts who were such spectacular mismatches for the operation in one way or another that I would never want them here, no matter how good they are. We also had a tryout work one or two nights and then vanish, which means he either met with a violent predator or just didn't like it here.

I remember one guy whose resume was terrific...and when he tried out here he was clearly more than eccentric. He was insane.

We've hired a few people without tryouts, with mixed success. I don't like it when we hire people without tryouts. As for the thoracic surgeons mentioned above, at least they have a licensing procedure of some sort (not that I am advocating one for copy editors). You never know what kind of person can worm their way into a job interview for a copy desk position, and a tryout is the only way to see how they handle deadline pressure and get along in the culture of your particular desk. And I think the latter is of importance to both the paper and the person.

copynomad · **Joined:** Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:07 am **Posts:** 623

Agreed about not hiring without a tryout. I haven't seen spectacular mismatches of the kind you're talking about, though. The freaks are pretty easy to weed out before a tryout. I got bad vibes from one guy and scrubbed him. A bit later, I heard from another hiring manager that the guy was a kook who'd lied and otherwise strung that paper along. That hiring manager was putting out the word on him, and I'd done the same with friends who hire. I've seen one guy's application several times, and he'll never get anything but a rejection. I've been warned about him as well. Separately, I was going through my predecessor's recruiting files, and I came across an e-mail from one of his contacts, warning about the same guy. It's a small industry.

JT · **Posted:** Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:59 am

McGarry wrote:

Parenthetically, my non-newspaper friends are always amazed when I tell them about our practice of "tryouts." I can't think of another industry that has them.

Side note to the discussion: try-outs, in the sense of "show me what you can do in a real-world setting," are notably common in the restaurant industry, particularly for young-un's starting out or looking to move up from, say, a prep position to sous chef.

At various points in his career, my son (a culinary grad) has been asked to prepare a soup or a sauce as part of the interview process. In those cases, the employers had made it clear in advance that a "kitchen audition" would be part of the face-to-face interview, and candidates were expected to bring their whites and other personal gear.

I've also seen informal tryouts or auditions at some automotive shops and dealerships, particularly when hiring for a high-skill position such as lead technician or shop foreman.

JT

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