Is this a story ... ?

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:26 pm

WASHINGTON (AP) â€” Information from a passport smuggling investigation set off a nationwide search for five men of Middle Eastern origin who may have entered the United States from Canada on Christmas Eve, an FBI official said Monday.
A White House spokesman said the intelligence came from an anti-terrorism investigation but the official, and an FBI spokesman, said they could not link â€” or rule out â€” a connection to a terrorist plot or cell.
The FBI released photographs of five men Sunday in hopes they would be recognized. However, bureau spokesman Ed Cogswell acknowledged the FBI is not certain the names and birth dates released with the photos are correct, or that the men even entered the country.
Nonetheless, federal and local officials are taking no chances ....*** Or general paranoia? This whole story is so generalized and unsubstantiated, with no solid factual basis, that I'm refusing to run it in my paper's Nation/World page. There's no way, based on what AP is sending, to distingue this from government-encouraged, racially tinged hysteria. Until there's something solid, I say it's a non-story.

gullyj · **Posted:** Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:32 pm

Toronto papers went big with this although Toronto Star did not run the five photos. This appears more of a space problem than anything else. Dominated the front of the National Post.
This may or may not be a news story, well-placed senior editors confirm. Some, none or a lot of consideration may have been given to its news value. Or maybe not.
The facts of the story are this: Canada and the U.S. are, indeed, countries. There is a border between the two. It is possible to cross this border. There is an FBI. Terrorism exists.
The rest of the story is dither followed by disclaimer wrapped in a cloak of who really knows?
But in a four-paper town, none will ignore an AP story containing all those hot button items even if it holds water like cheesecloth.

Bakelite · **Posted:** Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:32 pm

I don't know much about national security, but I do know that posters of these guys were all over the INS booths when I was flying home from Toronto late last week. AP might not be reporting it well, and the FBI might not be articulating the issues well, but I think there's a story here.

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:49 pm

Okay, I'll bite ... what, then, IS the story?

Rio · **Posted:** Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:33 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Jim Thomsen:
Okay, I'll bite ... what, then, IS the story?<hr></blockquote>The FBI is engaged in a nationwide manhunt for five guys it believed may have crossed the border into the U.S. illegally, and may be involved in terrorist activities.

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Dec 30, 2002 11:42 pm

That's two "may have's" too many. Still doesn't meet the credibility threshhold to me. If the FBI would be more forthcoming and credibly source their claims in grounded facts, then maybe I could buy it. Right now, it's not good enough, and AP should gave demanded more before putting this story out there.

Rio · **Posted:** Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:44 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Jim Thomsen:
That's two "may have's" too many. Still doesn't meet the credibility threshhold to me. If the FBI would be more forthcoming and credibly source their claims in grounded facts, then maybe I could buy it. Right now, it's not good enough, and AP should gave demanded more before putting this story out there.<hr></blockquote>The FBI thinks something is going on with these guys, but it obviously just can't come right out and say they're terrorists, and it's not going to divulge its reasons to the media for believing this, and possibly jeopardize its sources. And I personally don't think the FBI would have put this story out there if it didn't have put out this story if it didn't have probable cause. Why else would it do so? To foster "government-encouraged, racially tinged hysteria"? Talk about "general paranoia."This was a big story, and frankly, I think you did your readers a disservice by ignoring it.[ December 31, 2002: Message edited by: Gary Kirchherr ]

Powderhorn · **Posted:** Tue Dec 31, 2002 3:09 am

While preparing the budget today, I read this story and left it on, but in the meeting left a 72pt asterisk after I'd hit the sentence along the lines of (I'm no longer at work, so I can't repeat it verbatim) "The FBI isn't sure if the names or ages are correct."I don't view this as a paranoia issue so much as a racial profiling issue. The fact that this "intelligence" was admittedly lacking the point at which these men crossed from Canada to the U.S. made me rather suspect as to the whole story.Yes, there might be a lead here, but until we can get to the point of reasonable certainty as to names and ages -- and a general idea of what border crossing was used -- I'd say the biggest point this story makes is how sadly lacking our intelligence departments are. But the AP didn't cloak the story in that context, and the story as I received it wasn't worthy of mention.I'm willing to bet that on any given day, at least 50 Middle-Eastern foreigners cross into the U.S. from Canada. It's a non-story until we have something concrete -- you might as well tell me that people actually live in Canada.Pete(and I actually lived in Canada, so please no remarks thereabouts)

JasonC · **Posted:** Tue Dec 31, 2002 12:43 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Jim Thomsen:
If the FBI would be more forthcoming and credibly source their claims in grounded facts, <hr></blockquote>Wait a sec, you *do* know of what agency you speak, yes?This story is basically that the FBI is still in cover-thine-ass mode post-Sept. 11

rumymommy · **Joined:** Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:01 am **Posts:** 138

"LAHORE, Pakistan | A Pakistani
jeweler said Wednesday his
picture is among those of five
foreign-born men the FBI says
may have entered the United
States on falsified passports.
He said he has never visited
the United States.
An Associated Press photo
graph of Mohammed Asghar
taken at his shop in Lahore on
Wednesday was a near-perfect
match for the one included on
the FBI list under the name
Mustafa Khan Owasi, down to
the prominent mole on Asgh
ar's left cheek."
I guess we needn't any further proof that we've blown this thing out of proportion before there was enough corroboration.

The FBI released the photo at center Sunday, Dec. 29, 2002, identifying the man as Mustafa Khan Owasi, one of five suspects who the FBI says may have entered the United States on falsified passports. Mohammed Asghar, a Pakistani jeweler is seen Wednesday, Jan. 1, 2003, in his shop in Lahore in the photos at left and right. Asghar said he has never visited the United States.[ January 01, 2003: Message edited by: blanp ]

Rio · **Posted:** Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:16 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 4Jfan:
I guess we needn't any further proof that we've blown this thing out of proportion before there was enough corroboration.<hr></blockquote>Not so fast. What's with this "we" jazz?Just because one suspect says he's never been in the United States does not make the original story worthless. I stand by my original post.

Bakelite · **Posted:** Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:10 pm

The further this story develops (more names and photos coming out today) the more I'm glad I don't rely on Jim's newspaper.I agree that many newspapers have overplayed the story, but it's clear that there's room for it in the paper.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Thu Jan 02, 2003 5:20 pm

Associated Press
FBI agents are expanding their dragnet for a growing list of foreign-born men they believe may have entered the United States illegally from Canada, government officials say. ***"Dragnet" my ass.***

Rio · **Posted:** Fri Jan 03, 2003 3:28 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by blanp:
***"Dragnet" my ass.***<hr></blockquote>What would you call it?

rumymommy · **Joined:** Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:01 am **Posts:** 138

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
Not so fast. What's with this "we" jazz?Just because one suspect says he's never been in the United States does not make the original story worthless. I stand by my original post.<hr></blockquote>So I send you a press release that says there might be two guys who alledgedly maybe crossed into your town and perhaps could be there to do something nasty, but I'm not sure. I give you pictures and say one guy's name is Bob Dickens and the other is Rob Jeffries, but those may be aliases and they may not be using them. A day after you run it and scare the bejesus out of scores of readers, a random guy from three states over (or the next province, for our Canadian friends) says one picture is of him, and his name is Bill James. He checks out and is totally clean, he posed as one of those guys you get when you buy a decent picture frame, that's how the picture came about.Do you continue to run the story and the other guy's "picture" and just write a bit about how the one guy was a total fabrication somewhere in the follow-ups?

Rio · **Posted:** Sat Jan 04, 2003 3:56 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 4Jfan:
So I send you a press release that says there might be two guys who alledgedly maybe crossed into your town and perhaps could be there to do something nasty, but I'm not sure. I give you pictures and say one guy's name is Bob Dickens and the other is Rob Jeffries, but those may be aliases and they may not be using them. (etc. etc.)<hr></blockquote>Apples and oranges, my friend. Apples and oranges.

rumymommy · **Joined:** Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:01 am **Posts:** 138

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
Apples and oranges, my friend. Apples and oranges.<hr></blockquote>Reread the original story, the only difference is the names aren't Middle Eastern.

gullyj · **Posted:** Mon Jan 06, 2003 11:09 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 4Jfan:
Reread the original story, the only difference is the names aren't Middle Eastern.<hr></blockquote>This story was right under our noses in the Toronto suburb of Brampton. As the facts emerge, it turns out to be a passport and document forging operation. This is hardly new to us. In my reporting past I've covered plenty of these kinds of stories within this hugely multicultural area.So why couldn't the FBI or the RCMP just come out and say so in the first place? It would have been easy to have put out all the facts in the first place and -- fair enough -- state that there were concerns that these people came from alleged terror-supporting countries.But nooooooooooooooooo.... They had to leak a vague story that, by my interpretation, was designed to heighten fear.Could it be possible the U.S. government has an agenda to whip up fear to gather support for military aggression in Iraq and elsewhere?Just asking.

Rio · **Posted:** Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:33 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by canuck:
Could it be possible the U.S. government has an agenda to whip up fear to gather support for military aggression in Iraq and elsewhere?Just asking.<hr></blockquote>The U.S. government doesn't need to whip up fear to gather support for "military aggression" in Iraq. It already has that support. If your country were a terrorist target, perhaps you'd understand that.Hope that answers your question.

Phillip Blanchard · **Posted:** Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:59 pm

Back on topic, please!

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:23 pm

Gary, I have no doubt that your perspective is valid and that a great deal of Americans may also feel as you do ... however, it's no rational basis for news judgment. We need to judge the validity of stories such as this on their own merits, not on political rationales. And, I STILL don't see how subsequent events or reportage have proven that this particular story has any merit -- we still don't know who is being sought, why they're being sought, or what substantiation exists for what these people (or non-people) may or may not have done. Those are news values, not political or philosophical values, and they're the only ones that should matter to us in our professional capacities ... IN MY OPINION.

Guest · **Posted:** Mon Jan 06, 2003 10:41 pm

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Some FBI officials now believe an account of five men infiltrating the United States from Canada -- leading to a nationwide manhunt for the men for questioning -- was fabricated, sources inside the FBI said Monday. The alert, based on an account by Michael John Hamdani, prompted widespread news coverage and fears of possible terrorism around the holiday season. The FBI and 18,000 state and local law enforcement agencies made finding the quintet a top priority. Now, said sources, the account may have been bogus.

rumymommy · **Joined:** Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:01 am **Posts:** 138

Wasn't there something a month or two back about the government reconsidering establishing an official "office of misinformation" (or whatever gussied up title they came up with)? Grr ... why isn't 1984 required reading material for humanity ...

Rio · **Posted:** Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:54 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by 4Jfan:
Wasn't there something a month or two back about the government reconsidering establishing an official "office of misinformation" (or whatever gussied up title they came up with)? Grr ... why isn't 1984 required reading material for humanity ...<hr></blockquote>So the informant's information was bogus, and now the FBI is mocked by some for spreading Orwellian misinformation, whipping up war hysteria, or whatever.Of course, the FBI's only alternative would have been to keep quiet about , and hope that doing so wouldn't lede to another 9/11 and leading to more charges that the bureau is incompetent, ignoring warnings, etc.All things considered, I for one am glad that the FBI now is erring on the side of caution.

gullyj · **Posted:** Tue Jan 07, 2003 3:18 pm

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Gary Kirchherr:
All things considered, I for one am glad that the FBI now is erring on the side of caution.<hr></blockquote>
Which might explain why so many people link terrorism in America and Iraq when no such link exists.

But back to the topic: The FBI, in my opinion, knew the story in the first place. It was a very simple case of passport forging. They drummed it into something it wasn't.Now it seems the forger made up the tale to get hinmself off the hook on other charges here in Canada and the U.S. by offering "intelligence" information. Deliciously ironic!Back off topic: Does the FBI every worry about credibility? Or does the general public still believe Efram Zimbalist Jr. (sp?) runs the joint.

Guest · **Posted:** Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:25 pm

WASHINGTON (AP) â€” The FBI called off a nationwide search for five men Tuesday after determining a tipster's information was false, underscoring the government's dilemma in deciding whether to publicize information about a potential terrorist threat.
If the FBI keeps what it knows secret â€” even if that information is tenuous as in the case of the five men â€” it runs the risk of being blamed if something happens later. Yet if nothing occurs after many warnings, the public can become complacent or skeptical.
â€œI don't have to tell you about the boy who cried wolf,â€ said Michael Tigar, an American University professor specializing in criminal law. â€œAnybody who is in charge of the security of a country or a city or a person has to make judgments about what are real and what are unreal threats.â€

Rio · **Posted:** Wed Jan 08, 2003 1:50 am

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Jim Thomsen:
WASHINGTON (AP) â€” The FBI called off a nationwide search for five men Tuesday after determining a tipster's information was false, underscoring the government's dilemma in deciding whether to publicize information about a potential terrorist threat. ...<hr></blockquote>Hmm, this three-graf AP excerpt has a familiar ring to it. :) Well, we seem to have narrowed down the FBI's reason for posting this bogus story to one of two things:1) The FBI took a calculated risk on making public an informant's story, knowing that releasing false information could make them look foolish, but also realizing that being too cautious, as it was one and a half years ago, could cost American lives.2)The FBI knew the real story was only about passport forging all along, but released to the media what it knew was misinformation in a calculated move to whip up war hysteria.You guys make up your own minds, if you haven't already. As for me, I'm dropping out of this discussion now, before I say something I may regret later.

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